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Comment by mindstab | Hacker News Reader

I'd love to go to schools and get kids in groups like <15years or <10 years and ask them to design icons for these things and see what they come up with. They have a lot less cultural history and technological history. might be interesting.

Or maybe they've learned all these icons and while not getting what they did mean, they understand what they mean now, like letters of a new alphabet. Like how many Asian script characters are descendants of more obvious pictograms of actions. They still have meaning even if they've evolved a bit and even changed.

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From the stackoverflow thread linked by rapidnsnail:

> I tried this on my 9 and 13 year old nephews. I asked what does this button mean? "Save" they both answered immediately. Then I asked what the image looks like? They had no idea - not even a suggestion (which is fair since they haven't ever seen a disk). So I guess the meaning has overriden the image itself in the icon so we're stuck with it.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1019573/save-icon-still-a...

Well that particular one we don't have to worry about. The expectation of having to explicitly 'save' an electronic file is (finally) on its way out.

Really? Than what do you call the action of making particular snapshots of file state?

A camera? (snapshot)

Hmm.. maybe, but camera is often so overloaded.

What's a camera? You mean the photo app on my smartphone?

In the future, there is no such action. Everything is recorded with an infinite rollback history.

That doesn't fit many use cases. What if you want to preserve a particular version of the file? Yes, I understand all versions are kept in the infinite rollback history, but what about the UI element?

Copies.

Save is going away. Save As is going the way of "duplicate"/"fork".

... only in Lion.

I've been using that workflow for nearly a year now, and it's still driving me batty. It's inconvenient and backward, and I hope it gets reverted.

In anything with an auto-save-by-default workflow. Consider draft messages in modern mail clients. Some still have a manual 'save' button. But that's a transition thing. They'll go away as users learn they can trust the autosave.

Most of the awkwardness in Lion came from the shortcut keys having been wrong and the effect having been jarring for its lack of vestigial commands to ease the minds of those not-yet-convinced.

I find this new workflow nice by itself, but what's driving me batty is having two models side by side i.e some apps use open/save/save as while others use open/autosave/versions/duplicate.

My SO, though, finds it downright fantastic.

that reminds me of when, in 1999, some researchers installed an internet kiosk in a poor village, and children taught themselves to use it, despite not being able to read the language.

> Children invented their own vocabulary to define terms on the computer, for example, “sui” (needle) for the cursor, “channels” for websites and “damru” (Shiva’s drum) for the hourglass (busy) symbol.

from http://hole-in-the-wall.com/docs/paper02.pdf

This experiment made me happy. I remember times in the school computer lab when we surfed and did whatever we liked with the installed software, all during our computer literacy classes...nice to see people everywhere having at least the chance to do the same.

In another of his papers, Prof Mitra wrote about how "aspirational learning" could be conducted, in the sense of letting children watch interesting and inspiring videos from TED Talks, et al, which would inspire kids to consider what they could do for the world with dreams, technology, and hard work. I think that's absolutely a great thing to spread. In too many places people don't do new things simply because they don't realise they are possible.

UI designers are constantly forced to come up with new icons for crazy new features.

It's a common practice to look for it on Google images, i.e. "Save Icon", and see if there's a common metaphor. If not, you look for similar use cases - something so that it's much quicker for users to grok what it does.

That's the fundamental purpose after all.

This was the problem with Google/Android's new icons as well as GitHub. Google got caught up with minimization and left out the telling differentiators. Githup went nuts on illustration and lost the original meanings.

Yep, and you have supposed "leaders" like Apple that just give up and stop trying. Apple widely just throws up a button with a "gear" on it when they're too lazy to organize functions properly. And there's no telling what the gear button will do.

Even worse is the Easter-egg UIs that are becoming a widespread problem: There's no icon (or even control) at all until you accidentally roll the cursor over the area. WTF? Are users supposed to sweep across every pixel on the screen now, looking for hidden goodies?

Not sure what the gear is you mention, but I can't think of another company that has Apple's drive for intuitive UI, which is the fundamental purpose of icons.

In contrast, HN is a text-dominant application designed for text-dominant users...

Innovative doesn't mean intuitive - why is pinch zoom? Wouldn't it be more intuitive for pinch to close an app - after all you pinch things closed ?

Pinch isn't zoom. Unpinch in zoom. It would be intuitive for pinch to close an app, but not more intuitive, because in some apps your intent to zoom out could be confused with wanting to close the app (mobile Safari) and for other apps accidental finger brushes might cause an accidental closing of an app. The way touch gestures work now actually make a lot of sense. It seems like you're reaching.

Four finger pinch does close apps, though. And pinch as zoom makes sense if you ever played with newsprint transfered to silly putty!

What flat surface do you close by pinching it? Moreover, it seems you're trying to equate "intuitive gesture" with gestures people use with (non-computer) everyday objects, but I don't see why that is a requirement for intuitiveness.

Pinching to zoom in and out makes a lot of sense in my mind. Place your thumb and index finger at two points on a map/image/website. Those two points are two corners of a visual area. To make that visual area larger, expand the points outward. To make the area smaller, pinch inward. This conceptual mapping is very straightforward.

I've often thought about the issue the author brings up. I'm not sure what the case is now, but when I was a kid (15 or so years ago), cartoons were full of anachronistic items that I probably never would have seen otherwise.

Generally when you farther back, items become more differentiated and easily identifiable. A lot of these cross over with computer icons - telephones, antennas, alarm clocks. I really wish I could find a good listing for this type of thing, but my google fu is failing me.

I think those symbols are just learned.

Take folders. They look like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Earthwise.jpg

That makes it obvious where the symbol is coming from. The only problem is that those kinds of folders are not commonly used in Germany. I think I never saw a folder like that before I started using computers.

Folders look like this in Germany: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Lever_arc...

The word that is used in Germany to refer to folders („Ordner“ in German) actually refers to ring binders.

Yet I had never a problem dealing with folders on computers, even though the visual metaphor was unfamiliar to me.

It took me many years to work out that that the Mail icon I saw everywhere with the little red flag was a U.S mailbox. Where I live mail comes through a slot in the door.

It does in city/residential neighborhoods in the US as well. Outside of that, a mail man cannot walk door to door, so he delivers them from a car. I'm now wondering how that is handled in your location?

Swedish mail box: http://www.fotoakuten.se/albums/userpics/brevlaada.jpg

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