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Creating your own app is actually pretty easy on iOS. I run an app on my phone right now that I built myself and that is not on the app store.

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It's not easy, you need a multithousand dollar apple machine, and you can't share this app with anybody else.

No, you don’t. You need a Mac, but you don’t need to buy one. You can use a free tier on a build service like Bitrise if you don’t have a Mac.

But don't you see how it is yet another hurdle?

Android builds work on that same mac too.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a hurdle, I said you don’t need a “multi thousand dollar Apple machine”. And the cheapest Macs cost way less than that anyway.

Perhaps technically possible, but in practice it's against apple development directives. I doubt you do this yourself, or know anyone that actually develops iOS apps from a non-mac in the real world.

And you still can't share that app.

> in practice it's against apple development directives.

Most professional iOS developers use these kinds of services. They are totally commonplace and not against Apple’s terms in the slightest.

I feel you're being disingenuous. Close to zero professional iOS developers develop on a non-mac.

There isn’t a part of Apple’s terms where they say you are only allowed to use build servers if you are a professional iOS developer.

Build servers are absolutely fine.

Again disingenuous, I never said "not allowed".

Oh and up until 2019 apple was forbidding any virtualization of macOS in its EULA, there certainly were no free cloud build servers for iOS since relatively recently.

> there certainly were no free cloud build servers for iOS since relatively recently.

There definitely were. Bitrise had a free plan back in 2014 and they weren’t the only ones.

https://web.archive.org/web/20141103031325/http://www.bitris...

Are you an iOS developer? Because you are repeatedly taking what is considered run of the mill by iOS developers as if it were some outlandish concept you’ve never heard of before. Build servers – yes, with free tiers – have been commonplace for iOS apps for at least a decade.

You're either being utterly blinded, or dishonest. I'll stop engaging with you. For the record, however:

NOBODY DEVELOPS iOS APPS BY ONLY BUILDING IN THE CLOUD. NEITHER PROFESSIONALS NOR HOBBYISTS. NOBODY ON EARTH. Every iOS developer has a mac, because it's impossible to develop when you can only build 200 times per month (per your link). Yes, professional developers run some CI in the cloud, nobody cares.

Neither. I think we’ve been talking at cross-purposes. This was the start of the thread:

> It's just nonsensical to use a device that dictates what you can install on it. Well, Androids don't come with root permissions either ( you should be able to get it easily if you want imo ) but at least you can install any app, even just create your own.

I’m approaching this in the context of side loading (the “you can install any app” part). Other people in the thread have as well:

> If we're getting technical you don't need to jailbreak to sideload on iOS either. AltStore automates the tedium but you can side load just fine on iOS too (for now).

In case you are unaware, it’s somewhat popular to register Apple developer accounts to build and run apps that aren’t on the App Store. That’s what AltStore is all about.

If you don’t have a Mac, you can use a build server for this. Build servers are incredibly common and have been for many years. They haven’t just popped up in the last couple of years.

I see now that you aren’t talking about this at all; you are talking about developing apps. In that context, I agree. You wouldn’t normally use a service like that as a substitute for a development machine (although a very small number of people do actually do this!). But I wasn’t talking about that. I was talking about the side loading case.

Nevertheless, you don’t need “a multithousand dollar apple machine” at all, even for development. I believe the cheapest machine you can buy from Apple brand new that lets you develop and submit an app to the App Store is the 9th gen iPad at 329 USD. Or, if you insist upon a computer, the Mac mini at 599 USD. And of course you don’t have to buy new, so the actual cost of the machine you need is significantly lower than that.

“it's impossible to develop when you can only build 200 times per month”

Seriously??? I am not a mobile developer, but that statement is totally bullshit.

I regularly code for 20-60min between running a build.

I highly doubt I get anywhere close to 200 builds a month on all of my hobby projects combined. Obviously work is a different story, but that’s what paid plans are for.

The post says you can run/develop what you want and get it to work on apple. Where do "professional" developers apply?

MacOS TOS clearly state that if you're someone renting out access to macOS, you may only rent it for periods longer than 24h. I heavily doubt bitrise does that, as cost would be prohibitive (oh hey I wonder why that is)

In practice no one cares what apples development directives are?

You can get a cheap used mac. You're just being silly now.

Cheap for first world wages.

Not like PCs grow on trees.

This is getting silly.

> Creating your own app is actually pretty easy on iOS.

I don't believe you. I believe that you probably left out some crucial detail, such as having to own a Mac first.

Well.. Yea. Sure. But saying "you cannot" is very different from "you need a mac".

But this is exactly the kind of behaviour targeted by the DMA. Artificial restrictions in the functionality of iphone are inserted to drive sales of an unrelated product. It's page one of the Monopolist Playbook.

Maintaining a developer toolkit for Windows and Linux is a major hurdle.

If they intentionally prevent a third party Xcode-compatible implementation from existing, that’s monopolistic behavior. If they don’t want to provide it themselves, it’s a rightful business choice and theirs to make, in my book.

I noticed that you moved the goalpost. Quite a bit. "Cannot" to "need a mac" is an enormous move.

If you think sales of macs are affected in a measurable way by the fact that xcode runs on it you are delusional.

You didn't say “can”, you said “actually pretty easy”.

Is the $100 developer fee not required for own - non app store - apps?

No, you can deploy to your own device with a free Apple developer account. However there is a fairly short time line (I think a week?), after which you have to reinstall it. It’s designed for running apps on your device as you are developing them, not as a long-term deployment method.

Months. I have one on my phone that I haven't reinstalled for months. And I do this on my wife's phone, and let me tell you the wife acceptance factor of the app breaking after a week would be absolutely zero.

I don't know where you get these rumors from honestly.

With a free account?

I’ve heard many, many times that free accounts have a short expiry. I thought it was seven days, and I’ve just checked, and I remembered the duration correctly.

I can’t find an official source, but people mention this limit practically everywhere the topic is discussed. Here’s one reference, Google can help you find many, many more:

https://stackoverflow.com/a/73014888/8427

> Without Official Apple Dev Account

> If you don't have an official Apple Dev Account provisioning will only last for 1 week. The app will expire every 7 days (or less in some cases -- depending upon the day the initial certificate was created).

> With Official Apple Dev Account

> You will be able to provision your app for up to 1 year.

Can you create a provisioning profile with an expiry more than one week into the future with a free account?

Aha, yea ok. That's gotta be it. My bad. I do have paid account, since I have apps in the store and you have to pay that fee every year to keep that up (which is annoying for my free hobby apps!)

installing it without Apple's blessing is the real problem

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