Hacker News Reader

Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

Categorically opposed to the death penalty for every possible reason: moral, religious, practical. But: what the hell is this article doing on HN?

No shit, you say? Capital punishment is inane, unjust, and difficult to justify in a message board thread? Wow! Glad we sorted that out! Can we move on now?

If every legitimate social justice issue had a hearing on HN, the front page would be nothing but social justice issues.

Flagged.

View on HN

This isn't just a business-as-usual government-screws-up story. I have not seen a case of wrongful execution as bad as this. So while it's not evidence of an interesting new phenomenon, it's new evidence of an interesting phenomenon.

In most cases where social justice stories are plastered to the top of the front page, the people voting them up also believe that the story is uniquely interesting or important. Likelihood that this particular comment of yours is going to be used to justify many future stories like that, most of which will not be germane to the site: extremely high.

I also object to the idea that miscarriages of justice in death penalty cases are a "new phenomenon". This isn't a new phenomenon. It's just pithy, enough to capture the front page.

Can't say about the rest, but this story was very educational for me. By far the best argument against death penalty, and one that is not voiced enough (usually people oppose it because "murder is murder") (best as in: hard to argue against).

Having lived in Texas for 12 years I totally agree that this case isn't unique, in that Texas regularly appoints public defenders who are unqualified for the job or so overworked they can't possibly provide an adequate defense (1). And courts are happy to convict people whose lawyer sleeps during the trial (2). I express no opinion on whether this is suitable for HN.

(1) "Appointed as his advocates were a general practice lawyer who never had handled a major felony case and a veteran who had a heavy case load." (2) "The presiding judge said that the Constitution guarantees a defendant a lawyer, but it does not guarantee that the lawyer must be awake." http://www.secondclassjustice.com/?p=196

Do you feel this story has engendered a meaningful amount of useful discussion?

> I have not seen a case of wrongful execution as bad as this

I have bad news. This is a "typical" death row victim story. There have been several others like him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230402380457556...

Over half the death penalty convictions in Illinois were found to be faulty.

http://deadlinethemovie.com/state/IL/index.php

There have been a total 18 innocent people exonerated on Death Row in Illinois. Illinois has executed a total of 12 people since 1976

Prosecutors have no incentive to convict the criminal. Any plausible convict will do.

Even with faulty convictions, police may be seen by the wider community as able to do their job and thus the conviction for them is a cover up for incompetence. It may also be a vent and prop for communal racial prejudice. Also, victims' families are said to get the closure they think want, and incidentally many are against capital punishment anyway. Lastly, with faulty convictions, not only is the crime of murder perpetuated within the system, but the true killer walks free unhindered. Justice? Anything but.

The comments on this post where some of the more interesting I have ever seen on HN. Except, those like yours which simply complained that this was posted in the first place. As a rule I don't think 99% of Social Justice issues deserve a place on HN (bob's ISP steeped on him so what?), but neither do 99% of the breakthrough nano battery stories based on some vague improvement extrapolated to infinity. There is a reason the rules suggest intellectual stimulation as the rule and not just avoid anything posted to CNN and IMO this story is one of those that qualifies.

This article is newsworthy IMHO. I have yet to hear of a case of wrongful execution where the case for innocent was so clear.

The previous best-documented instance was the Willingham execution in Texas. for me http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_....

YMMV.

It's newsworthy but not hackernewsworthy.

I may concede it's not citricsquid-newsworthy.

But the guidelines say that anything gratifying one's intellectual curiosity is fair game. Isn't a quantum leap in the quality of documentation regarding the execution of an innocent person gratifying intellectually?

Note that not every article about death penalty gets posted here.

It is newsworthy. So are any number of things that are not appropriate for this particular site. This is not a general-interest news site.

Flagged. The FAQ is clear: if this could be on CNN, then it shouldn't be on HN.

Big-money startup acquisitions could be on CNN. I'll start flagging those.

The point he was making was not only straightforward but also a paraphrase from the site guidelines; here you've seized on the way he worded it in order to perpetuate a semantic argument instead of engaging with his actual idea.

(Obviously, it's easy for me to spot people doing it because I do it to other people all the time too. But still.)

You should.

Completely agree. Stop upvoting this, folks!

"Stop upvoting this, folks!"

Why would you sound so alarmist? You can do your stuff (flagging, upvoting, downvoting, expressing your opinion, discussing, pointing to rules and what not) without telling HNs what they should or should not do.

Why have guidelines at all?

Oh, the irony.

Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com