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Went to Prague last year and saw the very windows that at least one defenstration used. It was so high up and the window sills and leaves were combined about 5ft wide. So it's not like they just knocked someone through glass. They had to really push them off the ledge. Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe.

If they really thought the guys were so evil, they should have tried them, not defenestrated them. They knew better.

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My understanding of the 1618 defenestration is that war was essentially inevitable by that point.

The Holy Roman Empire had always been fragile—more of a loose alliance of princedoms than a proper kingdom or empire—and yet less than one year into his reign Ferdinand II started rolling back the strong religious protections that a large number of his vassals had begun to take for granted. There was no way that Ferdinand's approach to ruling the quarrelsome and religiously diverse German states wouldn't have led to war, even if these specific hotheads had kept their cool in that specific building on that specific day.

Yes, I think that your take is correct.

If it was the 1618 one (that's the one you can see from the courtyard), they wrestled him out the window and then beat his hands with their scabbards as he hung on to the sill for dear life. Fortunately he landed in a pile of horse manure and suffered only minor injuries.

Yikes. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah and it's not like the guys inside would've seen the pile of manure. It was not "ye joke".

FWIW, the horse manure story was probably invented as a reaction to the Catholic explanation that they were saved by divine providence. The whole event is so steeped in religious propaganda from both sides that I don't think we can conclusively say what happened except that both did in fact survive.

Very true. What gets even weirder (I'm kind of a 30 years war nerd) was how dynastic concerns always ended up confusing the confessional tensions, so that you had German protestant houses fighting for the Emperor to improve their position vs. the Palatinate, and Catholic France allying with Calvinist Sweden to expand both of their influence in northern Germany.

Even the pope rooting for the protestant side despite his nominal allegiance, due to Habsburg encroaching on Italy from both Spain and Austria.

At least according to Schiller, who might have enjoyed pointing out Catholic inconsistencies a little too much.

Wedgewood and Wilson (Wilson's 30 years war book is absolutely amazing, if you haven't read it) agree, though they both spend an entire chapter warning you that Schiller is excellent literature and absolutely irresponsible history.

But then weirdly the Ottoman Sultan was kind of low-key supporting the Habsburgs because his more immediate concern was Bethlen Gabor and if Vienna didn't have to worry about the Ottomans it would have a greater force-in-readiness to deter Bethlen. It's just such a fascinating time with so much of the modern world being laid down by people who were only thinking about immediate concerns.

> Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe.

Their grievances were justified, religious freedoms were being curtailed.

Grievances, yes. Actions, no.

Strong disagree.

I see in your bio that you live in or are from Prague. Since you and I see it differently, I would sincerely like to read more up on this event and the history leading up to the 30 years war. If you have anything that you usually recommend, I would gladly take that recommendation.

For the terrors that were going on? Many other nations did way worse things for way less.

Oh sure. The way I see it, I just don't buy into "other people murdering for lesser reasons makes my murder ok." I think they had systems of due process, knew due process was important, and decided to yeet people anyway. But yes, I realize people are a product of their times, etc. etc. And I don't think this is a controversial position within Czechia, from what I encountered?

Due process? Who do you think the people were?

When somebody in power decides you deserve to die, anything you do against them is justified.

The cathlic government was literally going in and doing ethnic and religious cleansing and basically was willing to systematically kill anybody that would follow the party line.

They did try them. That was why they threw them out the window.

I’m not sure a more level headed trial of the catholics in Prague would’ve prevented the war for long. That particular power struggle could’ve easily boiled over for any reason.

I'm sure we can all come up with twenty-first century examples of people who knew better revealing preferences for —instead of Themis— Nemesis.

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