Comment by kerkeslager | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kerkeslager | Hacker News Reader

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> I don't think currying happens without you asking to, though. It happens because it happens, it's part of the language, and it's something you implicitly keep in the back of your mind every time you see a function call.

Eh, but that's my point: I want less cognitive load. Currying is another thing that I have to keep in the back of my mind, and Haskell already has way too many of those, and it's not a particularly useful thing. I've got limited space in the back of my mind for things and if I'm going to keep things in the back of my mind I want them to be useful. I mean, if your argument in favor of currying is that it saved you a few keystrokes in that example, color me unimpressed.

Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand easily, but the "simple" example you're giving is taking me a while to understand. If a junior dev on my team submitted that in a PR I'd send it back asking them to break it up into a few smaller named functions and probably not use a partial application at all. Something like "I know it's fun to be clever but let's make this easier for the next person who has to figure out what it does".

I guess what I'm saying is that for that example it seems like you're going for tersity rather than clarity for future readers of the code. If you were going for clarity you probably wouldn't write it either of the ways you've given.

And in big projects clarity is the number 1 concern[1]. In toy examples like this I can slog through and figure something like this out, but when it's 30 functions written like this, all calling each other in the most clever ways possible, nobody can figure it out.

[1] EDIT: Okay #2 after correctness perhaps. But it becomes hard to achieve correctness without clarity as a project grows.

Hi, as someone who has been interested in functional programming for a while but who struggled to read point-free Haskell code until recently, I think it might be useful to share my perspective.

      gears = filter ((==2) . length)
            . map (neighbouringNumbers numbers)
            $ filter ((=='*') . fst) symbols

If this Haskell code does not look clear, it's because people are unfamiliar with point-free style, not because the this code is badly written, and especially not because the reader is stupid.

The given Haskell code reads naturally to me now. (I'm only a little uncertain because I can't write Haskell.) It would have been line noise to me before before point-free style clicked.

I tend to read Haskell code in articles from right to left, and it reads: "Choose the symbols whose first letter is '*', get their respective (neighboringNumbers numbers), and choose the results whose length is 2". I read (neighboringNumbers numbers) as if it were a noun.

I don't know how this clicked, but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with stupidity. Perhaps it was by chance, or perhaps it was by banging my head against the wall enough times.

Would I introduce point-free style in a JS codebase? Probably not. People are unfamiliar with this kind of style. Would I introduce this style in a Haskell codebase? Almost certainly, because it's clear and I think it reflects how Haskell programmers think.

They say that array languages are pretty readable once you get used to them, too? But you’re drastically limiting your audience. Part of readability is writing for people who aren’t as fluent as you are.

Expert jargon can sometimes be useful, but it often obscures things that would be pretty simple if written some other way.

With Haskell there’s a tension between saying “I only care about writing for other expert programmers” and “more people should learn Haskell.” The idioms are part of the turnoff.

It's not really saying "only expert programmers" though, is it? It's people who know Haskell, which by coincidence happens to be overzealous undergraduates and a certain subset of experienced programmers. FP is a paradigm among many, its basics somewhat predate (or since it's so close, co-date?) more imperative descriptions of computation. That we mostly use and as such mostly teach beginners with procedural languages is a quirk of history. Nothing would prevent a change to that except historical inertia. Saying "more people should learn Haskell" is saying "I don't want to write code only for other expert programmers." It's just as natural if you know it, and even beginners could know it, they just don't.

However as I mentioned, since it is not true that most people can read FP code, I mostly avoid using it. The example comes from my solution to AoC2023's Day 3, "Gear Ratios", which is just about the only thing I use Haskell for.

That doesn't mean that using it doesn't have practical applications, since being used to multiple paradigms opens you up to unconventional solutions. I've recently sped up a MATLAB function ~100x through using a more functional style to manipulate memory more efficiently. Async/await, certain styles of modern iterator manipulation and generators escaped F#, CLU and others into C# and from there into the world at large specifically because Microsoft programmers saw a problem they had had a solution for in previous functional projects. So it's not all useless.

For the record, a more imperative version could be written as

    symbols = [ imagine there's stuff here ]
    gears = []

    for (symbol, coord) in symbols:
        if symbol == '*':
            ns = neighbouringNumbers(coord) 
            if len(ns) == 2:
                gears.append(ns)

or in Python's functional-inspired notation which directly mirrors what's happening in the Haskell code

    gears = [ neighbouringNumbers(coord) 
              for symbol,coord in symbols
              if symbol == '*' and len(neighbouringNumbers(coord)) == 2 ]

though that requires an unnecessary extra call to neighbouringNumbers, which you could solve with a walrus op but I can't remember how to do that. I also changed the entire pair being passed to neighbouringNumbers (which was convenient in Haskell) to only the coordinate that is required (which is convenient in Python).

Personally I just find nowadays that having to comprehend "it collects neighbour-pairs from '*' symbols" from the imperative code harder than having that be the thing that is actually written down.

It’s true that readability is culture-specific, that if the culture were different and people learned different things then different languages would be more readable. But I still think there are differences between languages in the sense of how much you can understand without knowing the definition of every term.

For example, if you’re looking at Lisp code and you don’t know whether an outer term is a function, macro, or special form, you really don’t understand anything inside it except at the most superficial level. It might as well be JSON. Macros aren’t marked, so any unknown term might be a macro. (Knowing the surface syntax is still helpful, though. Well-known syntaxes for data are useful.)

With Forth it’s pretty bad, too. Not knowing what a single word does means that you don’t know what’s on the stack afterwards.

A Unix pipeline is a bit more orderly since you know that there are streams of bytes. You know the command names and the arguments to each command. But if you don’t know what a command does, you don’t know much at all about what the data looks like after that point.

I find currying and point-free programming to be pretty opaque because I can’t tell where the function calls are or how many arguments each function takes from usage. I don’t know what the dataflow looks like. It seems like you need to know some precedence rules too?

Languages with conventional function call syntax, augmented with named parameters, seem better. I can tell where the function calls are and where the inline functions are. Augmented with reasonable names for temporaries, I can make reasonable guesses about what the code does.

These syntax concerns seem independent of whether it’s a functional or imperative language? Making reasonable guesses is what we do when we read pseudocode. Maybe what I’m saying is that some syntaxes seem better for pseudocode than others, and I like languages that look like pseudocode better.

I suspect that these syntax differences also have an effect on how good the error messages are when you screw up.

> you really don’t understand anything inside it except at the most superficial level

This is true, but:

- the name of the operator is typically a word that you can easily search for in the documentation or on the web, or with "jump to definition" in your editor, if it's something locally defined in the source tree.

- you usually understand the shape of what is inside it. You know what parts of the program you are looking at are arguments to that mysterious operator and which are not. If asked which expression is the third argument of that operator, you can easily find it and know where it begins and ends.

> Macros aren’t marked, so any unknown term might be a macro.

Yes, that's a problem.

There are two clues:

* Macros typically have naming conventions. For example anything beginning with DEF should be a defining macro, not a function. Anything with DO- will be a control structure. Anything with WITH- will be a scoping macro. And so on. Avoid active names like CREATE- and use DEFINE- instead. CREATE-CLASS would be a function, DEFINE-CLASS would be a macro.

* In source code the enclosed code typically has syntax and special indentation, when used with macros. Functions have certain uniform indentation rules.

    (create-class 'container-ship
                  :superclasses '(ship)
                  :slots '((max-number-of-containers :type integer))
                  :documentation "our new container-ship class")

Above is a function and uses one of the typical formatting/indentation rules for functions. Line up the arguments. Start with the required argument and then the named argument pairs (name, arg).

The macro looks different. The first important things like name and superclasses are on the first line. The other parts of the class specification follow and are indented by two characters.

    (define-class container-ship (ship)
      ((max-number-of-containers :type integer))
      (:documentation "our new container-ship class"))

Developers who write macros should make it clear what a macro is, by using hints like these.

I guess my bigger complaint in this example is that there's a lot left out. What's in `symbols`? What is each `coord`? What does `neighbouringNumbers` do? What is this function trying to do?

I write Python a great deal for a living these days and the Python code isn't much clearer to me. In both the Python and Haskell examples I can tell what it's doing (except the opaque neighbouringNumbers)--I just can't tell why it's doing it.

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