Comment by oooyay | Hacker News Reader

Comment by oooyay | Hacker News Reader

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> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this.

Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say:

> I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen kids actually react well to increased "stress" on the job. Think basic training stuff. They are worked hard, go home tired and then actually sleep. Sending them home not tired leads to drinking and late-night gaming sessions after which they do not sleep and come to work the next day like zombies.

You aren't actively doing anything. You're saturating their day so that they're distracted from whatever underlying problems they face. They're too tired to deal with them so they sleep and repeat. I'd be curious to see your solution play out in the ten years post separation, but the VA may be ahead of you. For context (if you're not American) TAPS is what you take as you separate: https://benefits.va.gov/TRANSITION/docs/pstap-assessment.pdf (Section 4.C should have some relevant quotes).

I remember at some point a Navy Corpsman explaining to me that the goal of Navy medicine isn't to make you better, it's to keep you in fighting shape. Fighting shape doesn't need to be the best or most optimal shape, just enough to do the job the military needs you to do.

People use all kinds of colloquial models for mental health that may or may not have a relationship with reality. It is not obvious to me that there is such a thing as "underlying problems" that you mask by doing something else. Maybe, maybe not-- mental health is complicated and you have to prove this stuff. An alternative model is that people get depressed when they do nothing at home, and get better when they're surrounded by other people and have tasks to complete. I don't know what's actually right, but I'm always very skeptical when people approach these things with certitude.

I was speaking from some lived experience, so I'll be a bit more clear about what I meant by "underlying problems":

There were little activities to do on my base other than drink. I was paid very little, little enough not to afford a car. The cities I was stationed in were sounded by all kinds of loan sharks as a result. There were very few activities funded by the military that weren't somehow childlike or oriented for people with families. I was forced to live in a very old barracks that at times, frankly, barely functioned. While living in the barracks you can be summoned for duty at any time, unlike people who live off-base (married people). My life was as a Marine, so I'd be curious to hear an Airman's perspective. The services also tend to attract people who are actively attempting to leave home, so read from that what you will. None of these things are really unknown to the military or military leaders.

With young people it isn't a matter of running them tired and bypassing the problem. Most aren't actually mentally ill, rather for the first time in their lives they don't have someone telling them how to live their lives on a daily basis. So they are given structure until they can work that stuff out for themselves. Extra work is often part of that structure. For instance, I know of one 19yo who was basically bored to death at work and hitting the bar every night (not in the US). So his boss put him on the unit "safety committee", which is extra work. He then had to interview people and write a monthly report to be read by the CO, which is very scary for the average 19yo kid at his first unit. That little bit of responsibility, extra work, turned him around real fast. He came to my office to have me edit his first report. He was nervous, but prideful nervous rather than scared. He didn't have bags under his eyes anymore.

I get what you're saying now. People do need billets to bridge them to some more higher official responsibility if you want them to grow. That said, I don't think this is a great panacea for mental health days. Generally I use mental health days if I'm overly stressed, burned out, upset, etc...

Would you let a troop take a sick day if they were any of those things?

Actually no. We have a procedure. Such people would be reminded of the various mental health services we have. If they don't touch base themselves, someone will touch base with them. That might be a padre or more likely a call from a mental health nurse. Those people would then authorize them staying home, or not, based on medical judgement. We don't allow people to switch off, especially when they might have access to weapons. If you call in for a mental health day, and then don't answer the call from the padre/nurse/boss, you can expect people at your door within an hour. I know of one door physically broken down after a kid called in for a mental health day, then fell asleep (very likely still drunk) and failed to answer the door.

Quite frankly, this is why I'm glad to no longer be part of such an organization. This is as close as you can toe the line of actually causing harm while still making it look beneficial.

Yeah, I agree. Somehow what they described is actually a bar or two worse than what I experienced at an infantry support unit. I'd like to be able to say that the DOD is capable of change, but the VA has been telling them about the long tail effects of "procedures" and decisions like this for decades at this point and not a thing has changed.

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