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Comment by richrichie | Hacker News Reader

Russians lost 1 in 7 men to defeat nazis i.e. to save Europe from Europe.

From a historical point of view, it is the other way around. Germans, French and the English always had a hard on for the slavs. They desperately wanted those resource rich, strategically located lands. They still do.

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It does not matter what happened historically. We are talking about what is happening now. The Baltics, Poland, Romania, etc. see Russia as a threat and not their NATO allies.

You'd be amazed at the length of time people will hold grudges; to the point where it's engrained into their culture.

But the nations I mentioned see Russia as a threat and not their NATO allies. This is what we are discussing. What does it matter that some people hold grudges for a long time when that isn’t pertinent to the discussion at hand?

>> It does not matter what happened historically

I believe the opposite of this, and I believe that you cannot understand what is happening now without understanding what happened historically.

Right now, Poland, the Baltics and Romania fear Russian agression and are very much opposed to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This is the present reality and that at some point in the past other nations were more feared than Russia is of no consequence on the present reality.

Russia is a personalist dictatorship. It's actions are at the whims of it's dictator. It does not matter what actually happened historically to understand the present reality. What does matter is how one person views history and how that influences his decisions. But this only matters as it pertains to predicting his reactions/actions.

For instance if Putin beleives that the U.S. is the cause of all that is wrong in Europe then it doesn't matter if he is right/wrong. What matters is that he believes this and acts on this belief. Knowing his view of history is important but it in no way has any bearing on wether or not nations fear Russia at this moment in time.

It absolutely matters.

Germany initiated two world wars and was responsible for the deaths of millions, including systematic extermination of 6 million jewish civilians. Yet, they are somehow the good guys now leading the EU. If Russia is bad because its parent USSR was an oppressive regime, what of Germany?

Russia is not considered bad right now because in the past it was bad. It’s considered bad right now because of invading neighboring countries and that it is also Europe’s last true colonial empire. Germany was bad. Now not so much.

United States invaded Iraq (under false pretext of WMDs) and Libya and currently illegally occupies parts of Syria. Doesn't that make it a colonial empire?

Russia could argue that it has legitimate national security interests with Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.

I find the recent reflexive hatred of Russia puzzling. They are no worse than their accuser.

Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya, etc. are examples of Russian aggression. The U.S. is an empire and is neo-colonial. It has done outrageously bad things. Supporting Ukraine is not one of them. Russia is led by an evil man. There are other evil people in the world.

Could you please elaborate on Moldova? I am russian, and I am sincerely curious, what does it look like from your point of view. What exactly were russian actions that you classify as an aggression?

Tansnistra (spelling?). Read up on it. Russia is Europe's last traditional colonial power. It's dictator seeks, to the extent possible, to recreate the Russian sphere of influence enjoyed during Soviet times.

Actually USSR president didn't recognized Transnistria as an independent state. Even more he "declared the Transnistria proclamation to be devoid of a legal basis and annulled it by presidential decree on 22 December 1990" as Wikipedia says. And still today Russia didn't do that also. So what were the acts of the aggression made by Russians against Moldova? You wrote Moldova first in the row like something obvious and I'm really interested in the basis of this statement.

Germany has changed the way it treats its neighbors and has become a trustworthy and reliable partner who seeks to solve disagreements through peaceful means. You don't see military parades under Swastikas, people voting Hitler their biggest hero, or German leaders threatening the rest of Europe that "the masters will be back" and discussing on TV how many million people in Poland should be exterminated - all of which is happening in Russia.

They have been integral part of the NATO military alliance that bombed Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, lending military bases and participating in missions. Hardly solving through "peaceful means". It is just that they are on the "right side".

The bombing campaign of former Yugoslavia lasted for 10 weeks and stopped a series of civil wars that had gone on for 10 years and claimed at least 130 000 lives. The whole campaign killed a few hundred people, less than were executed in a few days in some of the worst massacres there, and brought peace that has lasted for 25 years and counting. So indeed they were on the right side.

Yeah, thanks for the save, Russia:

> The Uprising started when the Red Army appeared on the city's doorstep, and the Poles in Warsaw were counting on Soviet front capturing or forwarding beyond the city in a matter of days. This basic scenario of an uprising against the Germans, launched a few days before the arrival of Allied forces, played out successfully in a number of European capitals, such as Paris and Prague. However, despite easy capture of area south-east of Warsaw barely 10 kilometres (6.2 miles) from the city centre and holding these positions for about 40 days, the Soviets did not extend any effective aid to the resistance within Warsaw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising#Soviet_stance

I think you confused saving with conquering.

In 1939 there were 111 million people in today's Russian territory, in 1946 - only 97. So literally, yes, every 7th Russian was killed fighting nazis.

By the end of 1939, there was no such state - Poland. There was the Polish nation, but there was no Polish state that exercises its power within its borders. There were Soviet Union and Germany and border between them. And after the end of WWII, Poland was restored. Not just restored, but got about 20% of its current territory from Germany. Only Red army from all the Allies was present and won the battles on this territory. Would you restore a neighbour state and gift it yesterday's German territory filled with the blood of only your soldiers if you just want to conquer it?

Soviets were pretty happy with aiding the Nazis when invading Poland though. Until the Nazis turned against them.

To complete the picture Poland was also pretty happy with aiding the Nazis, together invading Czechoslovakia two years before that. Until the Nazis turned against them.

Soviets, not russians. The Soviet forces consisted of people from fifteen present day countries, only one of which was russia. More non-russians were lost than russians

Considering how many millions of people the Soviet Union murdered in its own nation (before and after WWII), and the nation's of other non-Soviet European nations being invaded anexed.."to save Europe from Europe" would be a statement that many, many Europeans may not agree with.

And yet, Germany leads the Europe now. I believe there is no need to recount the horrors they were responsible for, in their own country and other European countries. I don't think what USSR did to their own people is far worse than what Germany did to 6 million jewish people, enough to treat Germany better than the Russians, who in fact suffered at the hands of the Bolsheviks.

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