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Comment by jnoller | Hacker News Reader

As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any questions people might have.

A question, out of curiosity and not hostile in any way: what's wrong with the current one?

http://grokcode.com/746/dear-python-why-are-you-so-ugly/

See: http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#purpose and http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#current... - we outlined, as unbiased as possible, what we feel is fundamentally broken with the existing site.

Indeed, I just read that, so I will follow up further. Is this predicated on feedback you've received or more on what the board feels is appropriate?

Both, actually - we have some real designers on the team to help examine submissions, as well as people versed in IA/UX and accessibility. We (the board) have gotten lots of feedback over the years, and really want to make something more accessible, welcoming and modern.

The team vetting the designs is not 100% board members, intentionally so - as I said, we have domain experts as well as psf members, it's a small team to keep the noise down, but the goals and thoughts are outlined in the RFP as much as possible.

"we have some real designers on the team"

Problem solved!

Well, not really :) There's a difference between having designers, accessibility pros and others able to review the proposals and those that have the time to do the work. All of us are volunteers, and our time is limited.

I'm currently "in charge" of posting most of the PSF related updates, like meeting minutes and resolutions. It's only a once-a-month thing, but it's a huge pain in the ass. To do this, I hop over to my SVN checkout of the site, make a change, build it locally, then `svn ci` my changes and hope they build on the real site and hope we both have the same versions of everything.

I'm currently writing up a doc for a non-techie to take over that task and the steps to go from a clean machine to a functioning system that can make even simple typo fixes are barbaric.

Am I correct in believing that the scope of these documentation proposals is limited to the python standard library and runtime, and does not include the Python package index?

The RFP covers the design (UI/UX/IA) of the Python.org site and back end workflows. PyPI is a separate application in the whole site, and so it's back end code will not change, but it will probably adopt the new CSS/Style

Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here.

I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close.

That said.

"Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals"

I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article

"The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals

WOW

for architecture,

WOW

design, development, and maintenance

WOW

...of the primary web site.

Oh.

I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move.

I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone.

The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.

A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.

I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).

I think you underestimate the usefulness of a hosted environment. I need a really good reason to set up a full stack myself and incur the maintenance problems of system upgrades and hardening an entire OS.

That said, you are right that there are plenty of hosting providers with ruby/python available in some capacity.

In the comment that you're replying to, my exact words were "are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails)". After I said that loads of people are happy with Wordpress, and other similar services, including with plugins, and just use that instead of php and html.

So, whereas previously (in the 90s) you would have a big jump from HTML only with maybe PHP or you jump up to paying for a server every month and having to lock it down and administer it yourself, now, the former category has access to loads more 'hosted' service possibilities so that what you can do with "wordpress only" has substantially increased; meanwhile, the latter category has come down substantially, due to instances on the cloud being so much cheaper and the amount of uptake making it much more worth it for a company to put out a standardized image with a few frameworks, etc.

So my point was twofold. Firstly, the old 'hosted content' users have access (and use) substantially fuller services, and the old 'full stack' users AND some of the old 'php is all I can use' users now have EASY access to a full instance or whatever framework you want.

Between the two, I think your comment doesn't have much currency.

IMO periodic website redesign and cleanup is a good idea as it does make it easier for users to find information and gives a comforting feeling of a professional look to new users.

THe best way for people to contribute to Python the language is to take a look at the devguide http://docs.python.org/devguide/ and if they're new, join the core mentorship list: http://pythonmentors.com/

I'm saying that you need to broaden your input so that the people who would look at the devguide aren't the only people you're hearing from. Python can approach a local maximum that way, but the things that would make it truly awesome and attractive to web developers would be too out of the box for someone to think of like that. I'm saying, ask everyone, the whole community.

This is why we had a Web Dev summit at PyCon US 2012: https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/WebDevSummit/ - to discuss what we can do as a language and community to make it more "attractive" and ease the on-ramp for the web community as a whole.

So, other efforts are under way for this, and orthogonal to the current RFP

I agree with you on the orthogonality, and wish you luck in getting a very wide base of feedback.

I think Python could be the best language for the web and for any programming anywhere: in the future, if it lives up to its potential, there will be a time when no one should even consider learning anything else as a first or only language. But, for a web developer, I don't think that time is now.

I hope you take fundamental redesigns very seriously moving forward. Good luck.

"that lives on the web"

What does that even mean?

This is a good question. I don't know what the answer is, but there's a good chance http response objects aren't it.

Protip - complaining about your karma just makes people want to downvote you even more.

Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. [1]

1. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

duly noted, and I've edited and removed where I still could. Thanks.

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