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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

This is a useful comment, but it obviously leaves a bunch of stuff out that complicates its narrative, like the gradual immoral annexation of the West Bank, and the conditions in which Gaza has been locked in by Israel after Sharon's withdrawal. I sympathize with you about the frustrating differences between "true" Apartheid and what Israel has --- most notably, that it's a geographical form of apartheid, rather than a strictly racial one --- but I don't think the distinction much matters to millions of people living in what is in effect a bantustan.

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Gaza's lock-in after Sharon's withdrawal has more to do with the Palestinians than it does with the Israel. Many Israelis had hopes that the Palestinians would take that as an opportunity to get somewhere better. I think the blame on Israel for Gaza is misplaced, the situation there is totally the Palestinians own doing. There story there is also more nuanced. Gaza was first handed over to the PA as part of the Oslo Accords (well, actually predating Oslo in the 1994 Cairo agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Jericho_Agreement ). That then formed a base for attacks on the IDF and Israeli civilians which eventually caused Sharon to unilaterally disconnect from Gaza ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz... ). I think there was good will from the Israeli side and also from what I've heard Sharon intended to use this as a blueprint for withdrawal from the west bank. Either way, the blockade on Gaza is a response to the policies of Gaza, not an issue of discrimination, segregation, racial or ethnic. If Gaza was not at war with Israel there'd be no blockade.

The gradual annexation/settlement of the west bank is a different story. I am opposed to that. But just like there are two sides to the story in Gaza there are two sides in the west bank. The west bank isn't a story of peaceful people that are being abused, it's a story of a violent struggle between two groups (well, more than two groups if we include the surrounding countries). The Israeli settlement activity is a side story in this conflict, not the root of it by any means. You're letting the Palestinian side off too easily here, when the peace process was in full swing they could have gotten complete control of most of the west bank and dismantlement of most of the settlements. What was their response? Suicide bombings. You are removing agency from the Palestinians when you say the distinction doesn't matter. They as a people made choices the led them to the current situation.

The Palestinians want to dismantle Israel by force. Israel is opposed to that. What we're seeing broadly is the meeting of those two objectives. I think it's wrong of Israel to build settlements in occupied territory of undecided status and it's not helping a possible future resolution but the reality on the ground would look pretty much the same if there were no settlements at all given the irreconcilable differences between the parties here.

No part of Israel's security depends on Israelis expropriating West Bank land from Palestinians. A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election, and never again allowed another election; that would be an isolated point except that the current Israeli administration adopted a strategy of funding those apocolyptic psychopaths in order to hobble the PA. The culpability is shared, and very little of it falls on "main street" Palestinians.

The slaughter and takeover in Gaza came after Hamas won the elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. [EDIT: Clearly opinionated, we can/should look at polls since 2006 till today to get a sense of where Palestinians are leaning]

"In light of the Fatah movement’s fragmentation, Hamas holds a clear advantage in potential legislative elections, as shown by public opinion polls indicating a likely landslide victory." - https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509

As we know from other countries, not all elections are decided by a super-majority, Hamas won by the rules of their "democracy", it would have won in any other elections, and it and its actions enjoy broad support.

[EDIT: I guess we can't tell for sure what results we would get in an election that didn't happen but here is some more colour on the elections of 2021 that were cancelled by the PA:

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authori...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palest...]

"Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities." - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion...

Where I will agree with you is that the Israeli government has chosen a strategy of divide and conquer and were happy to see the internal battle between Palestinians and use that as an excuse/weapon. But again, you're giving the Palestinians too much of a pass here. Also it's inaccurate to say that Israel funded Hamas (something another comment said). Israel allowed Qatar to pass money into Gaza to pay for government officials salaries.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/

Many countries funded Hamas because every penny sent to Gaza goes to Hamas. Gaza received billions of dollars from many countries.

https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-forei...

We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it.

That's not a thing. If you have to make (or keep making; I say random things all the time, but I'm calling you on this one) this kind of argument, it's because all other arguments have abandoned you. I think you should concede it; either way, I can't imagine there being a point to us continuing to talk about this if you're not going to; maybe our premises are just too far apart.

I'm not sure what specifically you're objecting to. I've also made other arguments and corrections.

Also what are you wanting me to say? That we can't tell the result of elections we haven't had? Or are you pointing to other reasons why the Palestinians haven't had elections?

I don't think taking this back reduces the strength of my argument. If you want me to delete that comment from the protocol I'm happy to. EDIT: I made some amendments to my commentary there and put in some more references.

EDIT2: since you're calling me out I want to circle back to your comment that triggered my response: "A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election"

as I said Hamas didn't slaughter the PA members to win. It won and then it slaughtered the Fatah people in Gaza.

Hamas won the 2006 elections: "The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, 29 January 2006, and announced that Change and Reform (Hamas) had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45". The popular vote is not the factor here (though it also got more votes than Fatah).

I'm not sure why the point about the majority of Gazans today haven't voted in 2006 matters. It's a factual piece of data but I'm not sure it's relevant. Do we have any evidence to support those people are more likely to be in favour of peaceful coexistence with Israel and/or be opposed to Hamas? Is there an "opposition" in Gaza? It's clearly not a free or functioning democracy, I'll grant that. So if your point is that Gazans are oppressed by Hamas and don't enjoy democracy or other freedoms that's fair.

Gazans are victimized by Hamas, and then victimized again by Israel. Israel deliberately helped arrange for Hamas, an organization that held onto control of Gaza by force not persuasion, to be the most important actor in supply chains into Gaza and the sole political outlet for Gazan self-determination, then stood back and watched after 2017 as it transformed into an explicit death cult. It galls to see people attempt to tag Palestinians with responsibility for that. I'll be the first to say that the situation in Israel/Palestine is too complicated to summarize neatly, but whatever the hierarchy of culpability is, ordinary Gazans must be at the very bottom of it.

If we agree about that, do you feel like the comment you wrote reflects that sensibility? Like a reasonable person reading it would get that vibe? It wasn't the vibe I got, but this is a message board, so I want to be careful not to let my expectations get out of hand.

I agree they are victimized by Hamas. That's fair. I think putting the blame on Israel is a trickier point. What exactly did you want Israel to do? Re-occupy Gaza after Hamas took over? Not let any money into Gaza? I don't see any good options here. As I said it's fair to say there was an element of complicity from Israel but I wouldn't call Israel a Hamas supporter by any stretch of that word. We also need to consider the conduct of the Palestinian Authority throughout this period.

If you say that Israel handing over Gaza to the PA and withdrawal from the Gaza strip ended up being a big mistake I can agree with that in retrospect. At the time I personally thought there's a chance for peace. But that sort of brings us way back to the question of how is this conflict going to be resolved when all paths lead to bad outcomes.

Hamas was a death cult way before 2017.

The relationship between Palestinians in Gaza and Hamas is also more complicated then "victimized". I mean you're right but there are nuances there.

Hamas isn't oppressing people in the west bank. What explains the polls showing strong support for Hamas there?

EDIT: another random btw, I think your comments regarding the conflict are generally well informed and with good intentions. I appreciate that. It's sorely missing from online conduct on this topic.

There's no run of Hamas that I have a high opinion of, but after Sinwar seized control, the political leadership fled and started leaking to the global media that he was insane and truly believed Hamas was about to ignite the final battle between good and evil. Then, on October 7, he took his best shot doing at exactly that. They were right! He was legitimately crazy! And Netanyahu both supported them through it, and ignored warnings from his own intelligence sources.

If there's a thru-line to my comments on this issue on HN, it's this: (1) we're never going to resolve it on HN, and (2) Israelis aren't Europeans and Gazans aren't Hamas. Here, I'm just being consistent.

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