Ask HN: I have a day job, one kid and one on the way, how can I get things done? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: I have a day job, one kid and one on the way, how can I get things done?

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I'm 29 and I want to do more freelancing, and get traction on side projects, anyone have any suggestions on how to do this? Don't sleep?

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As a former kid who grew up with a dad whose first and greatest love was antique cars, I would first recommend against taking up a time-consuming hobby while having a full time job and raising kids. You have the opportunity to be a tremendous influence on a young person's life; Richard Feynman described this very eloquently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695Flhmjmg4. Feynman would not have become Feynman without all the time he and his father spent together.

If you try to give up sleep, it will make you less alert around your kids. Aside from potentially exacerbating a dangerous situation should one occur, it will also make you less responsive to them, less playful, and less patient. They will eventually learn to just leave you alone -- even if that's not what you intend -- and that will weaken your bond with them and make them less communicative and more rebellious later on.

I hope this isn't coming across as a lecture or a moral crusade. I'm not implying anything about how you are as a father. Just that, if you have a full time job and two kids, then you really don't have the time left to spend on personal projects or freelancing without sacrificing some of your relationship with your kids. The time you spend on freelancing or personal projects could instead be spent reading to them, playing with them, doing cool science-y things with them, and those things are all really important.

If someone had discussed this with my father while I was still young, I might still have something to say to the man.

I think you might need to update the "about:" field in your profile. This is the most valuable comment in this thread, despite being almost totally not what the OP was looking for. Frankly, some of the other comments are downright harmful (more carry out?? hire a babysitter?).

I don't even have kids, but thanks for this reminder.

Ya, your comment sound a lot like what my kid might be saying to me 20 years down the road, if I don't do thing right. I really don't want to sacrifice those precious moment of reading together, playing, etc etc with him.

That is why I try really hard to squeeze out time that wouldn't impact our relationship to work. It is hard but it is something I strive to do.

I appreciate your response very much.

I enjoyed that video a lot as well. Thank you for your thoughts, I don't think you came across as didactic, as you might have feared, just trying to show me what's really important, and I do take that to heart.

I lost my father at a very young age, and I always told myself that I would be there for my kids, and I'm going to stick to that, no matter what. I love my boy, and my soon-to-be-here boy or girl, and I truly want the best for them.

I realize that, after reading all the responses, I probably framed the question poorly. Here's some better context, I hope:

I work full-time during the day, my wife watches the boy during the day, and then when I get home, we have ~30 minutes together, and then she goes to work till about 11pm (3 - 5 days/week depending on her schedule), as I take care of our son in the evening, so I focus on that, until he goes to sleep between 8:30 - 9:30pm. Money is tight for us, and I'm bring to get additional freelance work to supplement our income to better make ends meet, and hopefully allow my wife to tapper off of work (as she gets further in her pregnancy).

All in all, trying to work when he's asleep in the evening, or in the morning is tough, as it's tiring. :) But perhaps I just need to suck it up. :)

I'm sorry, I shouldn't've assumed you were wanting to work on personal projects. Wanting to be a little more financially secure makes a lot more sense.

There's a limited amount of sucking-it-up that you can do. Take care of yourself. :-)

I'm in a similar boat. I'm a bit older, and my kids are too. One turns 5 in September and the other 2 next month.

Since the 5 year old has been born I've started several projects, contributed to a few open source projects and not made a lot of money.

My whole goal for side projects was based on wanting to provide more for my family. I thought if I could bring in more money we could move to a better home and I could provide nicer things for them. Funny how after having a kids material possessions of your own mean so little but you want the world from them.

Here's what I would do if I could do it all over again. I wouldn't have side projects, I'd have hobbies. I'd not focus so much on the hobbies that it impacted the relationship with my children. I'd worry less about making money right now, and focus more on what my family as a whole needs right now.

It's been a slow learning experience for me. Where I'm at now is I still poke around and try to learn. It really is a hobby for me. I like programming and my day job doesn't give me as much opportunity for creative programming as I'd like. I'm a devops sysadmin. I get to play with super expensive engineering projects like Citrix and 6 figure CMS systems. I get to do lots of scripts, implementing chef and nagios. However, I like to build things, so that's what I do as a hobby now.

I've dropped all focus from making money on my projects. With me not focusing on money I can drop a project for weeks at a time to focus on other things. Remodeling a bathroom or dealing with the extra running around for my daughters first ballet recital.

I also stopped focusing on having enough money to try and get the family to where I want it to be as far as new home right this second. Part of that mindset is why I insisted my wife work after the second baby was born. She didn't work for the first 2 years our 5 year old was born. She was miserable. She hated working and not having that time with the baby, and it was obvious the baby didn't like daycare or being with grammy most the day either. Nothing can replace mommy.

In January my wife quit her job. She got an offer for a job making a lot more money, she turned it down. The house is in much better shape. From cleanliness to just over all mood of everyone in the household. I'm all in on my day job 100% and I've been much more productive there because I've only focused on my family and the job. As such, I've gotten decent raises and a promotion in the past few years.

Lots of unexpected expenses have come up. I've learned that we don't need to buy a lot, and instead of focused on knocking out doubt and putting extra money into the house so we can slowly prep it to sell while waiting for real estate value to increase. My house depreciated a lot, however I live near DC so we are seeing a recovery.

The past few months I've completely stopped focusing on the idea of making money from my projects. It's been extremely hard. I often get the bug that if I just finish the one app I can bring in more money. Something always distracts me, that something usually being something I need to do for the family. I've learned to accept that having that distraction it's what's better for me in my life and for the lives of my kids.

One thing I've also realized is that I'm going to have a ton of time later to work on side projects. The level of independence my older child shows compared to the baby is remarkable. Taking the time to focus on the job that provides a regular paycheck while spending the rest of my time being Dad and Husband rather than Entrepreneur is what I believe is best for everyone now.

I've also started focusing on myself. My myself I mean my health. I waited until I was in my 30's to have kids. I want to meet my grandkids. I've been eating healthier, getting some exercise and making sure I get enough sleep.

When I'm an old man I expect to measure whether I'm a success or not to be the children I raised and not any company I've formed. Maybe I can give my kids the headstart that they can create something amazing before they're ready to settle down and raise a family themselves.

Just to be clear, I haven't given up on the side projects. I've just reclassified them. I've still got 2 websites up that work, and I continue to work on them. I'm learning 2 new languages this year. Ruby at work for chef and Go to rewrite one of my python/zeromq apps in to see if it's easier to maintain. Maybe when the kids are older I'll have time to pursue one of my sites as a real business. Heck, I'll probably still make a few stabs at it before they're older. Right now as I write this, I hope I fail for a few more years. It's awesome watching how many new things my kids can learn in a week. It's great being the one to teach them a few of them.

Oh, as johngalt said don't neglect your spouse. My wife and I had our first real night out in months last week. It's amazing when you get to go out and be husband and wife instead of mom and dad.

Noted. Me and the wife-y have a date night coming up. :)

Grandma gets to watch the boy, and spend some quality time with him, while Mommy and Daddy get some one-on-one time.

I love my wife very much, she's great, and a great mother. I try to show her I appreciate her as often as I can.

Love your answer. So nice to hear someone in the same boat, taking it all in, and making it work.

I'm trying to keep everything in perspective, and realize I'll have more time for things down the road, but at the moment, it'd be nice to have one solid freelance gig, that could make ends meet better, and I guess that's the real driver now. My ambitions of being my own boss completely and all that jazz, are probably down the road, or have passed me by, and that's ok.

Just trying to live and learn, and take care of my family first, and foremost.

Thanks so much.

First take some time off to perform a time audit. Really take a look at what you're spending time on, and reducing the amount of time consumption that keeps you from freelancing before you do so. Not sleeping is not a sustainable nor a scalable option.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm finally turning the corner, and actually doing work, rather than surfing the web, or caving and watching TV or something unproductive.

Yeah I attempted that many months ago. My body told me a definitive, "NO." I listened. :)

It's not just surfing the web, caving and watching TV. Doing household chores, cooking, laundry, and completing other errands aren't necessarily productive either. Also the billing, expense tracking, and bank reconciliation. You may not be able to eliminate them completely. My original message was find a way to automate and delegate those responsibilities so that you can focus on the highly-productive tasks.

I don't really have an answer on the question, I am just another person starting out on freelance and struggling at the similar situation. I have a kid and a fulltime job as well. So I guess I am on the similar situation as yours. But I am already 37 ;-)

I tried not to sacrifice my time with kid and wife so I tried to wake up earlier at 4-5 a.m., spend 2-3 hours to work on things, then go to my fulltime work. I find this time of the day work better for me than if I stay up late to the night. You are alone, the air is fresh, and you are like having the whole world :-).

It is not easy, sometime I just couldn't wake up that early after the alarm went off. And then feeling guilty the whole day for not able to achieve the thing I plan to do. Sometime the alarm wake up my wife instead of me, and she couldn't fall asleep again after that, that is also a big problem.

I think focus, persistent and discipline is important. When we don't have the luxury of spending the whole day on the thing we need to work on, break a big task to smaller chunk that we can complete in shorter amount of time. Focus on small steps instead of climbing the big mountain.

I post about my story here as well http://www.kahfei.com/?p=242. A long post though.

> I find this time of the day work better for me than if I stay up late to the night. You are alone, the air is fresh, and you are like having the whole world :-)

I love that feeling, and may find myself trying that out again, seems like several people have echoed the same timeframe.

Great post! Thanks so much for sharing.

> Is that what I really want? Admit defeat without even try hard enough? Then what is the lesson I am teaching my son here? How am I supposed to tell him that you can be all that you want to be as long as you work hard enough? What kind of example I am setting for him?

That is exactly my worst fear. I'm talented, and I know I can succeed, and I know I can be a good father while doing it. That's what I'm going to strive for. Thanks so much for the inspiration!

Fulfilling your talents and becoming a good father (while also a good husband and son), there are lot to juggle, but no one say they must be mutually exclusive. So Good luck :-)

By "get traction on side projects" I'll go with the assumption that you mean "enough to quit your day job." (If that's not correct, then this advice may not apply).

Simple answer: save six to twelve months of living expenses from your day job so you can quit. Then you'll have plenty of time to make traction happen with a side project; and turn it into something real. Cut expenses as much as possible so you can build up your savings to the required level.

More complex answer. Compartmentalize your day job into the hours you put in there. Look at all other time as side project or freelance time. Get rid of all debt, if you have any. Getting out of debt is one of those liberating things that will make quitting your day job much easier. This second option is more time-consuming. You might find yourself taking on more responsibilities that you can't easily escape. Try to find a way to quit your day job sooner, rather than later; otherwise you may never quit.

Part of me agrees with your assumption, that, yes, that is the ultimate goal for me…and perhaps it is.

I'm taking this advice right now, as far as the debt reduction. But need to really get a consistent freelance gig going to get that kind of savings. Honestly, we've been cutting costs everywhere and it really does help in the long run.

I'm ok with waiting a few years for this to happen, and that's probably the more likely reality for me.

Thanks!

I can say from experience that staying up late works for a while, but you'll eventually hit a wall and hate life. Now, if I have a side gig, I go to sleep almost as soon as my son is in bed (I say almost because you need to have some non-parent time). Then I wake up early, like 4am early. The benefit is you're fresh and hopefully have 2-3 hours before your oldest wakes up.

Of course when the baby arrives you can forget side gigs for about three months because it'll be madness. However it's only three months or so of crazyness, and they're only that small once so enjoy it! :)

Yup, I also tried that for a while.

> Then I wake up early, like 4am early. The benefit is you're fresh and hopefully have 2-3 hours before your oldest wakes up.

I may try 5am. Once upon a time, I'd wake up early and go running, and such. Now maybe I can get back into the habit, and get some freelancing done.

Yes. I realize this, and as far as I can tell, there is no way around this, unless you have a stay-in nanny, which is probably reserved for the reality TV stars. :) I will not fall into the trap of thinking, "yeah, I'll still be able to get side work done.", I know this go-around that's not possible, and the kids are only this tiny once. :)

Thanks! I will enjoy it. :)

As a father with 2 fairly young children, I can tell you from my experience that it will be extremely difficult. You will become very aware of your limited time availability, which allows you to be much more productive during the time that you do have.

In the end, there's only so many hours during the day. You have to limit what you can work on and carefully pick what the top priorities are. Focus on those intensely. Good luck!

Thanks so much!

Not sleeping will be a very bad idea.

Just keep working and saving money; in two-three years your child will be independent enough for you to have some extra time. Your side-projects will still be there in 3 years; your child will only have one shot at the next few years and those early development years are -crucial-. Plus if you continue working at your job rather than freelancing you'll have that much more capital for a solid base when you jump into the big ocean of freelancing.

You should also discuss this with your wife. It will require lifestyle changes and lifestyle changes are hard on a marriage. This is a good place to start for ideas; maybe introduce her and let her do her own reading.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

There are of course many other frugal and financial fitness blogs out on the internet to go along with this.

Oh, and good luck and I hope your little one has a prosperous and productive life.

Thanks so much!

Stop working on side projects and freelancing.

Focus on the three things you are handling right now (don't forget your spouse). Don't learn the hard way about overextending yourself. Handle what's in front of you first. Make yourself acknowledge that now is not a good time for side projects and freelancing. A day job and two young children should take all your time.

New babies trigger a 'nesting' overdrive mode in parents. On top that you're facing turning 30. Take a step back and tell yourself that you are a good parent and provider. A good job and a healthy family is plenty to ask for.

Another good coping method is a notebook. Write down all the ideas and side projects just to get them out of your head. A good time for this is 30min before bed. It helps you stop the spinning gears and get to sleep.

Thank you. I'll keep this in mind, but I probably need one good freelancing gig for now.

> On top that you're facing turning 30. Take a step back and tell yourself that you are a good parent and provider. A good job and a healthy family is plenty to ask for.

Great advice.

I definitely have a Moleskine "idea book" (or three), and constantly fill them, as I have "idea-rrhea". :)

UPDATE:

Wow, thanks everyone! Some great advice.

I wasn't expecting such a solid response, and was almost afraid I was going to get bombarded by early twenty-somethings working at startups asking why I was dirtying their site, with my silly old-man fodder. :)

Great to hear other hacker-fathers in the same position as I am. All in all, I'm taking the advice of trying to go to bed when the boy does, and get up early to get work done in the morning before the rest of the house gets up. While trying to stay sane at my regular job, and making sure I exercise, and get enough sleep to make it all work, and discuss with my spouse what I'm doing, and make sure we're still all good in the hood, with our relationship, and doing what's best for our young family.

You really want to start off with a baseline of good sleep, eating and fitness habits. If you are healthy you'll have a lot more energy to get things done.

After that it's like everyone tells you--choose the most important things to do with your time. My advice would be to make really sure the goals you are choosing match with what you're internally motivated to do.

It may be that your spouse and children (and maybe even your day job) are more important to you than side projects. If that's the case, and those things eat 100% of your time, be happy that you're doing what's most important, and stop wasting energy fretting about the endless list of things you would do if you had no time constraints.

Good advice.

I've recently started running again. Can you believe I did a half-marathon in high school? God that was a long time ago, but I want to get back there, fitness-wise, and I'm trying to commit to this. I definitely feel better when I exercise. I did today, and I just think clearer, you know?

For now, seems like the side projects are going to the back-burner, and the real concern is to just get a consistent freelance gig, to make ends meet better. I love my family, and I'm trying to get advice on making this all work. Thanks for your feedback.

You can be an entrepreneur at any point, you can only be a father to these young children once. Relax and enjoy your children, especially whilst they are very young. My kids are 6 & 8 and with school, sport, general tiredness that they get, I now have the time to do side projects and the like. I tried when they were younger but at the cost of some quality time with them - and with my wife.

If you really do have to do something then I found getting up at 5 and having 2 hours before the rest of the house was too awake (my kids sleep in) worked pretty well, but you have to remember to go to bed at a decent time.

Thanks for the advice.

I may have to try the "early bird" thing. That may end up what happens for now, before numero two is born. :)

I actually started getting more done once my daughter was born (well, not at first, after about 8 months or so).

I only had an hour or two when she was asleep in the mornings or evenings when I wasn't, but I was really focused and productive during that time because I knew that was all the project time I would get.

And I totally agree with the other posters. Sleep is super important, you want the time you do have with them to be quality time not grumpy time.

Awesome.

Yeah, I've fallen into the trap many months ago, thinking I could go with less sleep. Doesn't work. Zombie daddy is not a good thing for anyone. Now, I make sure I get my rest.

I've got a five month old and I'm still learning how to do this. I also cook dinner most nights. I'm lucky if I get an hour on my side project a day.

Time when the spouse takes the child shopping with her is golden.

I agree with the other commenters that persistance is good (progress is going to be much slower than before kids) and that reducing the amount of time you spend on other things will help. Less TV, more carry out, etc.

step 1) stop watching TV completely (get rid of the TV completely from your household, your life)

only after you completed step 1)

  step 2) prioritize your projects
  step 3) complete(!!!) the first one
  step 4) GO TO step 2)

i was twenty when my first son was born, 30 when my second son was born. the first two years after the births were the most productive in my life. it's not about what you can,should,ought-to,... do, but what you do (and what you finish).

update: i'm kinda shocked at a lot of comments here. stop your "hobby" projects (they are not a hobby, they are an opportunity) and freelancing... invest more time in your kids. i mean, come on, life (including business life) is not over when you have kids, it's just the beginning. you just need to prioritize better. (p.s.: this is written from bolivia, where i'm currently staying, after 6 month of south america traveling (with family), while running a successful consulting business and working and coding on various side projects. it's all about prioritization.

I totally agree. I too am shocked to see so many "quit your side projects" comments. The trick is prioritization, like the old saying goes: "anyone with more than 3 priorities has no priorities." I have a 6 month old that I am very involved with.

The first few months was difficult by default due to the chaos. But now that my wife and I are in a routine (and he is sleeping through the night), I am getting a lot done. Perhaps not as much "work" as before but what it has allowed me to do is get rid of everything that doesn't really matter and focus only on the things that do (ie, it makes me happy, it makes me money, self improvement, etc).

Mornings I typically get up with him and spend an hour or so playing with him, feeding him, etc. My wife looks after him during the day. When I get home from work I devote my entire attention to him and my wife. I take care of bath time. We split the feeding time before bed. Sometimes we spend time all together then, other times we each do the tasks at hand while the other feeds. After he is in bed we either spend time together and then work, or vice versa. A couple nights a week it is date time where we watch our favorite shows together or whatever and there is no work.

Am I busy? Hell yeah. But I make an effort to be effective with my time. I use the web app Rescue Time to track my productivity. It at least quantifies my time at the computer.

Also, As far as freelancing, before I cut it out altogether, I simply raised my rates. This gave me less freelance jobs but allowed me to earn more per hour. Wasnt making quite as much however I was a whole lot happier.

My point is that I agree that you need to put your family first, but feel you can live your dreams AND be a good parent if you simply remove everything that is not important.

Don't sacrifice time with your children to work on side projects. Do what you can before they wake up and after they are in bed.

Yup. Definitely doing this now. There's no way to do things while they're awake. Impossible. They're too cute.

Have an honest discussion with your spouse. She will guide you and help you in ways you can't imagine right now.

Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. We're on the same page with the direction I'm going. At least one solid freelance gig, for the time being to help better make ends meet.

Go to bed at the same time your kids do and then wake up earlier to them. That is the time where you can get something done but not cause your family to miss on you because your full attention is importaint to the health of your families relationships.

that's a really good idea. working in the morning is good for the most people too.

Yes. This seems to be a repeating theme through the comments. I'm definitely going to give this a try. :)

Find and hire a baby sitter. Use the newly created free time for your projects. If you can't afford a regular baby sitter, then your project is figuring out how to get the money for it.

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