Hacker News Reader

Comment by sasvari | Hacker News Reader

Germany has nearly as much installed solar power generation capacity as the rest of the world combined and gets about four percent of its overall annual electricity needs from the sun alone.

Despite the discussions in Germany about the high costs of PV for consumers, this still shows something remarkably: a (in general) not so sunny country in the northern hemisphere installed approximately half of the solar power capacity of the world. It's not easy, and even in Germany there are huge challenges lying ahead, but especially industrialized countries should take this as a sign to accelerate their own renewable energy strategies.

View on HN

The 4% overall vs. 50% of these few hours illustrates the fundamental problem. Societies don't need electricity "for a few midday hours" on very clear, sunny days at a time of year where the sun is "in" the hemisphere. They need it more or less consistently all the time. Let's see how much electricity this massive investment is producing on a cloudy day in December.

I don't see a 'fundamental' problem here at all. Yes, place the German solar panels in a region where the sun is shining more intensely and constantly over the whole year and you get a lot more power out of it. And IMHO _that_ is the problem: nations with these areas haven't installed this capacity, and effectively Germany is significantly responsible for the massive decline in the cost of PV.

So the question is: why hasn't a country with more and more intense sunlight hasn't done it? And why aren't they scaling up massively now, with the price of PV much much lower than when Germany decided to do it?

That's a great question. Take the US as an example, since it has plenty of sunshine.

Nowadays investment in renewable energies is politically risky after the Solyndra failure, after the DOE gave Solyndra over half a billion dollars of loan guarantees.

After the dramatic failure of its own renewable energy initiative, it began attacking other countries' initiatives to expand solar use. For example: "The U.S. yesterday imposed tariffs of as much as 250 percent on Chinese-made solar cells to aid domestic manufacturers beset by foreign competition, though critics said the decision may end up raising prices and hurting the U.S. renewable energy industry." [1]

It's a sad state when the US government--presiding over one of the sunniest and advanced nations in the world--will not only refuse to sponsor domestic initiatives to bolster renewable energy development, but also punish countries that do.

[1] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/18/1092726/-250-Tariff...

I honestly don't think tariffs on Chinese solar panels is a bad thing. China devalues it's dollar, it's people & it's environment already. Plus they've stolen some US "green tech"[1]. I don't think they are playing on a level field.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-esp...

That depends on whose perspective you're looking from. From the US solar manufacturer's perspective, of course it's not a bad thing, since it stifles competition.

But from the perspective of people in the US who want solar panels, or Chinese producers of solar panels, it definitely is a bad thing.

Also, the link you supplied doesn't mention a word about solar--so punishing solar companies in order to "get back at" wind companies just doesn't make sense. Moreover, it isn't the case anymore that the Yuan is unambiguously undervalued. Many things are more expensive in China (in exchange-weighted nominal terms) than in the US, such as cars, electronics, etc. Also, in terms of the current account surplus, it is considered "normal" now [1].

[1] http://www.economist.com/node/21553041

Not everyone wants the cheapest thing possible without caring who made it or how it was made.

Tariffs are not to punish China because they stole wind tech, that is something that should be properly resolved in Chinese courts, but somehow I doubt that the US company is going to find proper restitution there. It's just an illustration of how unfriendly China can be to US competition. Copy tech & then go home & hide behind a convoluted & foreigner unfriendly court system.

The central Chinese government will do what it thinks is best for itself. This may involve squashing human rights, lax worker safety, destroying their environment, manipulating markets with currency(regardless of where the Yuan is right now) or raw materials. China is not above doing what it takes to benefit it's own manufacturers. I don't see why the US should not investigate benefiting it's own manufacturers as well. You could say that people will suffer because they won't get super cheap solar panels made under questionable circumstances, but honestly more people need to look beyond the price tag & at the "true costs".

I don't disagree that the US government should and tries to do what's best for itself (to the extent possible within the constructs of the political system...).

I'm just saying that I believe it's not in its interests ultimately to levy such a heavy tariff on solar panels, regardless of where they're from. You may disagree on this, as many will disagree with China's policies.

I'd love to get cheap, subsidized solar panels--better if it's not subsidized by my own taxes. I just think levying a punitive tariff goes against even the spirit of self interest.

One problem with the general lower standards argument is that it is so open ended. Based on that, the world could quickly slip into outright protectionism hurting everyone along the way. Sweden could slap massive tariffs on US goods based on low social and environmental standards or even currency manipulation for instance. Measured by purchasing power, the US dollar is about as undervalued relative to the Swedish Krona (and many other currencies) as the Yuan is relative to the US dollar.

Also, we have been importing commodities from brutal dictatorships for decades or even centuries in order to fuel our economies without ever complaining about low standards. Now that these countries start competing with us we're suddenly up in arms.

But ethical issues aside, such tariffs just make very little practical sense. Helping US and German panel manufacturers and at the same time hurting installers, equipment makers and consumers isn't going to help. Surely, the Chinese will retaliate.

Effectively, the Chinese and the Germans are subsidising everyone elses cheap clean energy. Let's just use it!

But why tax the US consumer too, which is what tariffs do? Why not sales subsidies for US manufacturers, say?

also, half of the pv capacity of the world is only 4% of the power needs for germany.

growing > 50% CAGR in the last 5 years. Don't write it off just yet :)

let's not forget that renewable sources are not only solar panels, e.g. the US produces energy comparable to germany from wind (given populations) and the same has always been popular in, say, netherland or denmark. Or, Italy produces about 7% of the consumed energy from hydro alone, and I believe norway has about 99% of the energy produced from hydroelectric plants.

That's a very good insight that I didn't consider, it's as if Maine had achieved the highest level of PV usage in the US.

In fact, most of Germany gets less sunlight than most of Maine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Insolation.png

Reply on news.ycombinator.com