Comment by andy_xor_andrew | Hacker News Reader

Comment by andy_xor_andrew | Hacker News Reader

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andy_xor_andrew

The iPad Pros, though?

I'm very curious how much iPad Pros sell. Out of all the products in Apple's lineup, the iPad Pro confuses me the most. You can tell what a PM inside Apple thinks the iPad Pro is for, based on the presentation: super powerful M4 chip! Use Final Cut Pro, or Garageband, or other desktop apps on the go! Etc etc.

But in reality, who actually buys them, instead of an iPad Air? Maybe some people with too much money who want the latest gadgets? Ever since they debuted, the general consensus from tech reviewers on the iPad Pro has been "It's an amazing device, but no reason to buy it if you can buy a MacBook or an iPad Air"

Apple really wants this "Pro" concept to exist for iPad Pro, like someone who uses it as their daily work surface. And maybe some people exist like that (artists? architects?) but most of the time when I see an iPad in a "pro" environment (like a pilot using it for nav, or a nurse using it for notes) they're using an old 2018 "regular" iPad.

>artists? architects?

Ding ding ding ding ding! The iPad Pro is useful primarily for those people. Or at least it was. The original selling point of the Pro was that it had[0] the Apple Pencil and a larger screen to draw on. The 2021 upgrade gave the option to buy a tablet with 16GB of RAM, which you need for Procreate as that has very strict layer limits. If you look at the cost of dedicated drawing tablets with screens in them, dropping a grand on an iPad Pro and Pencil is surprisingly competitive.

As for every other use case... the fact that all these apps have iPad versions now is great, for people with cheaper tablets. The iPad Air comes in 13" now and that'll satisfy all but the most demanding Procreate users anyway, for about the same cost as the Pro had back in 2016 or so. So I dunno. Maybe someone at Apple's iPad division just figured they need a halo product? Or maybe they want to compete with the Microsoft Surface without having to offer the flexibility (and corresponding jank) of a real computer? I dunno.

[0] sold separately, which is one of my biggest pet peeves with tablets

What’s sad about the Air is that it’s only a 60hz screen. I’m spoilt now with 120hz on the first gen iPad Pro, the iPad needs it even more than phones (and they need it). So I’m not a demanding user in all other ways but the Air is not satisfying to me, yet.

I use an iPad Pro as a teacher. I value the pencil and the screen size. Much of what I do ultimately involves A4 paper, so the screen size is a good match.

A lot of teachers now project their iPad screen wirelessly in class, sometimes almost to the exclusion of any other teaching method.

I value the high performance both for everyday ease of use and specifically for screen recordings.

It is not a laptop replacement; it is a wonderful complement.

Totally agree about "Pro". Imagine if they gave it a real OS. Someone yesterday suggested to dual-boot. At first I dismissed that idea. But after thinking about it, I can see the benefits. They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS. They certainly have the resources to do so. It would open up so many new sales channels for a true tablet.

Which sales channels?

> They could leave ipadOS alone and create a bespoke OS.

Asahi Linux already runs on Apple Silicon.

The EU could try to unlock Apple device boot of owner-authorized operating systems.

That's another path to having a real OS. And more likely to be realized.

iPadOS 16.3.1 can run virtual machines on M1/M2 silicon, https://old.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/18m0o1h/tutorial...

Hypervisor support was removed from the iOS 16.4 kernel, hopefully it will return in iPadOS 18 for at least some approved devices.

If not, Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support.

> Microsoft/HP/Dell/Lenovo Arm laptops with M3-competitive performance are launching soon, with mainline Linux support.

I have been seeking someone who’ll be willing to put money on such a claim. I’ll bet the other way. Perchance you’re the person I seek, if you truly believe this?

Which part - launch timing, multicore performance or mainline Linux support?

perf >= M3 while power consumption <= M3, while booted Linux and, say 50%: streaming a video on youtube.com over wifi at min brightness, 50% compiling some C project in a loop, minimum brightness from and to internal SSD.

Compared to macOS on M3 doing the same

its_a_trap.jpg :)

At Qualcomm SoC launch, OSS Linux can't possibly compete with the deep pockets of optimized-shenanigan Windows "drivers" or vertically integrated macOS on Apple Silicon.

But the incumbent landscape of Arm laptops for Linux is so desolate, that it can only be improved by the arrival of multiple Arm devices from Tier 1 PC OEMs based on a single SoC family, with skeletal support in mainline Linux. In time, as with Asahi reverse engineering of Apple firmware interfaces, we can have mainline Linux support and multiple Linux distros on enterprise Arm laptops.

One risk for MS/Asus/HP/Dell/Lenovo devices based on Qualcomm Nuvia/Oryon/EliteX is that Qualcomm + Arm licensing fees could push device pricing into "premium" territory. The affordable Apple Macbook Air, including used M1 devices, will provide price and performance competition. If enterprises buy Nuvia laptops in volume, then Linux will have a used Arm laptop market in 2-3 years.

So.. your test case might be feasible after a year or two of Linux development and optimization. Until then, WSL2 on Windows 11 could be a fallback. For iPad Pro users desperate for portable Linux/BSD VM development with long battery life, Qualcomm-based Arm laptops bring much needed competition to Apple Silicon. If Nuvia devices can run multiple OSS operating systems, it's already a win for users, making possible the Apple-impossible. Ongoing performance improvements will be a bonus.

That’s the point! In two years m5 will exit.

But I’m happy to take that bet with “Linux” replaced with “windows”

Since the hardware already exists and has been benchmarked privately, this is less of a bet and more of an information asymmetry. So let's assume you would win :) Next question is why - is it a limitation of the SoC, power regulators, motherboard design, OS integration, Arm licensing, Apple patents, ..?

I presume the sequence of events was: some developer at Apple thought it would be a great idea to port hypervisor support to iPad and their manager approves it. It gets all the way into the OS, then an exec gets wind of it and orders its removal because it allows users to subvert the App Store and Apple Rent. I doubt it’s ever coming back.

This is everything wrong with the iPad Pro in a nutshell. Fantastic hardware ruined by greed.

It's been rumored for years that a touch-optimized version of macOS has been in development for use within iOS VMs.

Never. Not ever, ever ever.

Apple currently has 5 major build trains: macOS, iOS, watchOS, tvOS (which also runs HomePod), and visionOS. Huge amounts of the code are already the same between them: they literally just build the same stuff with different build settings… except for the UI. The UI has actually unique stuff in each train.

This has become more true over time… teams are likely sick of not having certain dependencies on certain trains, so they’re becoming more identical at the foundation/framework level every release.

Saying they’ll make a macOS with a touch UI is like saying Honda is finally going to make a motorcycle with four wheels and a full car frame. The UI is the differentiating factor in the OS’s. Everything else has already converged or is rapidly doing so.

If the goal is to support macOS apps on iOS then there’s a dilemma: how do you suddenly make apps that are designed from the ground up for a mouse, good for touch? The answer is you don’t: you just make the rest of the system identical (make the same APIs available everywhere) and ask developers to make the UI parts different.

I could almost believe that they’d make a macOS VM available for use with a keyboard and mouse within iOS. But to me it’d make more sense to do a sort of reverse version of how iOS apps are supported on macOS… where macOS apps are run natively on the iPad, but rendered with the iPad’s window management (modulo whatever multitasking features they still need to implement to make this seamless) and strictly require a keyboard and mouse to be in this mode. There’s just no reason to make a VM if you’re doing this: you can just run the binary directly. The kernel is the same, the required frameworks are the same. No VM is needed.

VMs are needed by professional developers who want to run CLI tools and services (e.g. web server, database) without the security restrictions of iOS, while retaining the OS integrity of the iPad Pro device.

Even if a macOS VM had only a CLI terminal and a few core apps made by Apple, using a Swift UI framework that was compatible with a touch interface, it would be a huge step forward for iPad owners who are currently limited to slow and power-expensive emulation (iSH, ashell). Apple could create a new app store or paid upgrade license entitlement for iOS-compatible macOS apps, so that users can pay ISVs for an app version with iOS touch input.

What you’re talking about sounds great but it’s not “a touch optimized version of macOS”. You’re describing a CLI environment in a sandbox.

Apple will never ever take macOS and change its UI to be optimized for touch. Or at least if they do, it’s time to sell the stock. They already have a touch UI, and it’s called iOS. They’re converging the two operating systems by making the underlying frameworks the same… the UI is literally the only thing they shouldn’t converge.

The mythical convertible iPad Pro "docking" to a "MBP Base" to use it as a touchscreen. ;)

I like the fact that a number of iPad and iPhone apps now run on macOS without a simulator or any ceremony. While they are touch-optimized, they're easy enough to use with a pointing device. The gotcha to such mythical OS convergence is the inverse is untrue since a desktop UI is unusable 1:1 on a tablet with the coarser granularity of tapping and less keyboard access.

Perhaps OS-level AI in the future will be able to automatically follow design guidelines and UX rules and generate a usable UI (Storyboards or such View parts) on any platform given a description of data, its importance, and a description of what it should try to look like.

> subvert the App Store and Apple Rent.

EU and US regulators are slowly eroding that service monopoly.

> Fantastic hardware

Hopefully Apple leadership stops shackling their hardware under the ho-hum service bus.

It's been rumored for years that a touch-optimized version of macOS has been in development for use in iOS VMs. With the launch of M4 1TB 16GB iPad Pros for $2K (the price of two MacBook Airs), Apple can sell developers the freedom to carry one device instead of two, without loss of revenue, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40287922

I bet that touch-optimized macOS will never see the light of day, or if it does it will be insanely crippled. Too much of an existential threat to Apple’s stock price.

Apple is in the midst of a cold war with regulators now. Every new feature will be scrutinized to check that it offers no threat to their golden goose if regulators force them to open it up. Allowing one type of VM means that regulators could force them to allow any type of VM.

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