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Comment by nsguy | Hacker News Reader

How do you propose we determine the fine line between the antisemitic "The Jews run the World" and "being critical of their actions"? What would e.g. be the piece of evidence that convinces you that we're dealing with antisemitism and not legitimate criticism?

We shouldn't shut down conversations about Israel with antisemitism but we also shouldn't shut down conversations about antisemitism with "being critical of their actions".

There are many other groups lobbying for various causes in the US, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_lobby_in_the_United_State...

"According to ProPublica, 4 of the top 10 governments lobbying in Washington are Arab, in terms of spending. The United Arab Emirates places first, having spent $10,914,002 in 2007 and 2008. Iraq, Morocco and Saudi Arabia also each spent over $3 million, and the non-Arab, Middle Eastern nation of Turkey also spent over $3 million."

Why the focus on Israel here?

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> Why the focus on Israel here?

That is the what the article is about and there is something going in involving Israel.

I can't find the article I read a while ago with a graph showing their massive increase in spending, but according to a few articles AIPAC plans to spend $100Million this year.

As far as how to distinguish between them. I really don't think this should be complicated.

Criticizing a government is not criticizing a religion or people.

If I start to attack a religion or to attack a group of people based on those beliefs, then yeah that is antisemitism. Actually having and voicing a problem with jewish people.

A government is not that. We criticize our own government all the time and we are not anti-American (ok, admittedly some do try to make those claims but that's a different story).

yes I will also admit that this got complicated with the protests.

This might be a useful reference here: https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitio...

"Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." ...

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

Because Israel is a Jewish collective then some criticism of it can be and is antisemitic.

One test of whether specific criticism of Israel is anti-semitic or not is to s/Israel/OtherCountry/ and ask yourself whether similar criticism would be made. E.g. comparing criticism of Israel on its war in Gaza contrasted with the US war on Afghanistan or Iraq or the war on ISIS. For example, when the US bombs a hospital in Afghanistan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike ) do we see the ICC issuing warrant for the arrest of the US president and secretary of defense?

This is grasping at straws at an insane degree. If you compare the international blowback the US gets to any other country you are going to have a bad time because it has an extremely unique position in the world.

And even if that wasn't the case, if you argue that pointing at how Israel does godawful stuff is antisemitic, all you are achieving is I no longer care about antisemitism because I'd have to be morally repugnant to justify actions on such basis. Because if you argue that antisemitism is needed to criticize the systematic abuse of a population then my logical conclusion is that antisemitism is sometimes the right thing to do.

Because the original post is about Israel using fake social media accounts to get US representatives to support genocide in Gaza. We’ve literally just passed some laws to _sanction the ICC_ for their daring to say anything negative about Bibi Netanyahu. Does the Arab lobby also have this kind of power? I mean, are you going to seriously argue that this is normal: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/03/aipac-israel-spendi... ?

I'm not American so I can't comment on US politics but I feel like there's a small difference between "daring to say anything negative" and asking for arrest warrants (without jurisdiction as well). The Arab lobby seems to have plenty of power, e.g. it looks like they managed to make the US stop (or at least pause) shipping weapons to a long time ally that's being attacked and is at war.

There's list of different PACs here: https://www.opensecrets.org/political-action-committees-pacs...

AIPAC is a lobbying group of Americans that think the US should have pro-Israeli policies. It's operating within the framework that many other lobbying groups are operating in. It's a large and influential group reflecting the large number of Americans that believe in pro-Israeli policies. I guess it's "normal" in any sense that US politics are "normal". Ofcourse Americans are more than welcome to pass laws to limit the influence lobbyists can have, like many other countries do.

We get it, you’re a Zionist. Just say so outright. I’d like to think, however, that the US paused weapons shipments because Israel uses them to indiscriminately kill women and children, and commit ethnic cleansing of Gaza. I might be wrong on that account, but if I am, that’s utterly indefensible.

Sure. I'm a Zionist. No problem with that.

And yes, you're totally wrong on that account.

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