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Comment by alphazard | Hacker News Reader

Companies with PIPs stand firmly on the "Adult Day Care" side of the industry.

When serious professionals try to work together and it doesn't work out, someone is asked to leave, and they do. They get to play it off as a reason other than performance. Egos and careers remain undamaged, and everyone can move on.

Adult Day Care centers have very low bars to clear, and most roles could be performed by basically anyone. Firing someone requires a lot of pomp and circumstance in order to seem fair. After all, everyone else is barely doing anything, and they will get to keep their jobs.

If you get put on a PIP, you know what game you're playing, and you absolutely should not quit. Make them fire you, and collect unemployment. Then move on to the next host.

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> If you get put on a PIP, you know what game you're playing, and you absolutely should not quit. Make them fire you, and collect unemployment. Then move on to the next host.

What game is that? It's common for employers to use PIPs to create a paper trail prior to terminating somebody who doesn't get the memo that they are not making the grade. That's because performance reviews tend to under-document problems, which leaves the employer open to problems if the matter ends up in court. (Which is not particularly surprising--most people including managers are uncomfortable giving unvarnished feedback.)

This! Ive worked for these places- I remember after a really stellar year (By all meaningful metrics I was our strongest performer), one poor interaction with this really whiny waste of space led to me being talked to by my "manager", someone younger and less experienced by all counts- I straight up started the conversation with "Am I on a pip", "No", and then proceeded to derail their entire attempt to justify someones personal complaints about me. Ended the call, started applying- peaced out 2 weeks later. Your comment is spot on for that work environment... You being on PIP or not, run.

Isn't it better to leave on the best terms possible? In my career I've sometimes needed to get references from my last few positions to get offered my next one. Wearing out everyone's good will while you run out the clock doesn't sound like a good strategy.

In the last few decades, it seems rarer and rarer for companies to give references, or at least meaningful ones beyond 'Yes, they worked here. No, we have nothing bad to say about them.' I'd wager the companies with a culture that allows PIPing also won't give you a wager. You are left with personal referrals from colleges.

Refusing to give detailed references is another practice of Adult Day Cares. It's usually limited to an acknowledgement that the subject of the reference did indeed work there. This is to limit liability, they don't want to get caught up in a libel suit.

Meanwhile, serious professionals primarily use word of mouth and their networks to recruit for important roles. For less important rank-and-file roles, references are one way to de-risk new hires. Anyone applying for a senior position should be able to write down a few phone numbers that lead to glowing reviews. Never having impressed anyone is a red flag for a senior role.

Some places the pip is an alternative to unemployment - if they can "show cause", which is what the PIP is, then your unemployment benefits are reduced or cancelled.

Being dismissed for poor job performance is usually not “cause” for unemployment. Cause would need to be for something like not regularly showing up for work, not working all your assigned hours, violation of the rights of a protected class, committing violence at work, etc.

It's often far cheaper to fire someone immediately and pay out full benefits than it is to keep someone on payroll on a PIP. The cost of keeping someone on PIP isn't just salary, it's also the management and maintenance associated with it and the opportunity cost of having someone working on a project that could otherwise go to someone more productive.

PIPs aren't about unemployment insurance; they're about reducing the risk of a wrongful firing lawsuit.

I think people have a huge misunderstanding about what a wrongful termination is. Unless you're part of a union or work in the state of Montana, which most software developers do not, then you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption.

> as long as it doesn't violate your civil rights or some kind of public policy exemption.

That is precisely what I meant.

I doubt that.

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