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Comment by Rinzler89 | Hacker News Reader

It's not really surprising. EVs (both foreign and domestic) haven't caught up in price and range as fast as expected since the proposal was originally made, for EVs to be a drop-in replacement for ICE cars the voting population can afford and drives to work everyday and on vacation in the south of Europe every summer.

And neither is the EV charging infrastructure already there to support the same use cases. And since there's no sign we'll be there in 10 years, then a lot of voters will be pissed that they'll be priced out of car ownership when the future they were promised didn't pan out.

I'm already betting the deadline will be extended past 2035 as we get closer to it.

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The problem is prices. People want to buy EVs but they cost nearly twice as much as conventional cars, it's crazy expensive (which to me smells like racket by the car companies, China has been doing it much cheaper and from what I hear, which good quality too)... it's a bit more competitive in some countries where the government give really high bonus for people buying EVs (Sweden was giving like 50,000 SEK bonus for each EV which was just enough to make it affordable for the richer people, but without that bonus only taxi drivers, environmentally friendly people who believe EVs are really great for the environment - despite their manufacturing being less than green - and people who drive a lot and can save a lot on fuel can justify going for EVs - and as a result EV sales fell for the first time in decades last year).

Price is a marketing choice, EU manufacturers (with a few exceptions) are choosing to position EV cars at the high end of their offering and brand them as high tech for high margins. More largely EU manufacturers currently have the problem of trying to position their whole offering as high end.

It isn't just prices alone. New ICE cars have also gone up in price a lot.

And EVs are marketed more towards the high end because mostly rich Europeans have a single family home with a charger at home where the EVs slot in. Most ICE car owners don't have chargers at home or in the vicinity meaning mostly the rich can quickly dump their ICES and replace them with an EV without loosing UX.

EU car manufacturers are just following the local market/demographics. Cheap EVs exist here, like the Dacia spring, but that's kinda crap and the charring infra issue still remains.

I live in the countryside and single family home are mostly not rich people but very middle class. EV would be perfect for them but they are far too expensive. No it’s really like manufacturers deliberately price EV to make up for the energy economy so it doesn’t cannibalize their ICE offering they spent billions developing.

Depends where you live in tbe countryside. In Austria single family homes are definitely more of an upper class purchase.

it's not just that. EV's are simpler and a lot of knowledge about making ice cars is not transferable to ev, meaning if germany accepts this, a lot of ppl will remain out of their jobs there

Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe?

If you dig a bit you’ll find studies that show things like “95% of vehicles are driven less than <some number much smaller than standard EV 400km range> per day”

So no, I don’t think range is a huge issue, and fast charging infra is a lot better in EU than US in my experience.

Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous

> Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous

100%. Honestly, I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done.

Both:

1. Better bike lanes, everywhere, well maintained throughout seasons with good government subsidies on ebikes.

2. Public transit density and focus on lowering wait on connections. Basically, look at what Switzerland has done and try to copy it.

>I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done.

And I hope for all wars and world famine to end and all employers to let me WFH so I won't need a car and to raise my salary by at least inflation every year. The thing is we rarely get what we wish for, and in the EU countries I've been it's not really improving at the rate needed for people to give up on cars. The reality is the public transportation infra develops much slower than the demand shifts on the ground, hence why cars will always be with us.

I wouldn't say range is really a problem outside of a few groups - people who tow horses or caravans, people who use their car routinely for long journeys.

The challenge, certainly in the UK, is that only half the population has the potential to charge their car "off-street" and the roll out of on street charging is slow and the costs mean it could cost more than conventional car - which given it's also more expensive makes it a challenge to justify.

Spamming posts with 4 pieces of 16A outlets shouldn't be too hard though. That is essentially how marinas might look, or parking lots in countries with alot of snow for cabin heaters.

Alas, I believe the poor in rentals will just end up with shitty rent seeking app-driven spyware chargers.

depends, in terms of territory us is big, but you don't randomly travel east to west coast just like you don't randomly travel portugal to estonia. Most car trips in both us and eu are pretty small and can easily fit current ev range for most ppl/cars

>Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe?

For a lot of people yeah. The cars isn't just for trips to work and the supermarket (which sometimes can be done by foot, public transport or bicycle), but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family.

You can call it an edge case, but edge cases matter to car owners if they can only afford one car per household. Also, a lot of people in the EU work in one country but have family in another and commute by care quite often. Charging speed and infra density isn't there to suport these cases.

> but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family.

Right, and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? Like, I've now done 4 cross country trips in the US (PA <-> FL <-> WA) in both summer, and winter. With the pre-heat-pump-for-heating Tesla Model 3. I basically had to charge one to two times a day, for about 20-30 minutes each time. This was genuinely a good way to force me to stop and take a break too.

I don't really consider these cars a limitation for long distance trips either?

Good for you. But I'm talking about Europe, not the US.

And most don't have (and can't afford) Teslas here. Maybe in Norway and Switzerland, but not all Europe is like that.

A lot of non-supercharger infra here is non-existent or slow charging meaning long distance trips are gonna be much longer and less predictable, hence why those who rent cars for long distance trips never rent EVs.

>and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it?

You've never interacted with non-supercharger chargers have you? Like broken ones with issues, or crap payment systems that don't work. It's the kind of things giving people major anxiety.

That’s fair.

The other problem with the charging networks is that each country has its own charing companies doing their own thing with their own apps and payment solutions. Even though I've never driven in Poland or Lithuania, I'm very confident I can work out how to pay for petrol at any petrol station I stop at there. I have no idea if I could actually charge my car at any charging station I roll up to. The last thing I need when on a road trip is to pull up to a charging station somewhere in Lithuania with 8% left and find out I need an app that cannot be installed on a UK phone.

Maybe not range per se, but there are a couple of Europe-specific things that make EVs less attractive. First, many people live in apartment buildings and park their cars on the street, with no charging facilities. So they'd have to make that supercharger trip pretty often. Second, on any given Saturday in July and August there will be millions of people driving for vacation (1000+ km not being uncommon), mostly to the Mediterranean or back to their country of origin (Eastern Europe, Balkans, Turkey). In this period I've already ended up queuing for 10-15 minutes for gas - I can imagine it would be worse without chargers. Also, people who take their car to the poorer European countries often do it because of poor public transport infrastructure there, so the likely poorer EV infrastructure there would play somewhat of a role as well (though likely minor).

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