Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by kortilla | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

kortilla

Im surprised you think the issue is labor and land costs.

View on HN

What would you peg it on then? Profiteering subcontractors? I’d file that under labor.

Why don't we have foreign workers temporarily come and do this cheaply then?

Pay what it costs for people to live good lives

Labor for public projects is so messed up that we basically can’t build anything without paying 10-100x what China would pay to do it. Eventually we simply get economically outcompeted, or maybe we invent robots to make the projects feasible again.

> or maybe we invent robots to make the projects feasible again.

In the introductory, "disruption" phase it will come in at about half the current cost. Then, once the current market and expertise has been destroyed, they can rack-in maximum profit by jacking up their prices, with added, predatory inconveniences, such as "cleaning costs".

That’s because China is an authoritarian dictatorship that uses forced labor. That’s who you’re pining to be.

It really isn’t. I’m as big a critic of China as anyone, but assuming its workers are all slaves who aren’t advancing up the tech chain is really dangerous, very stupid.

I didn’t say all labor was forced, I said they use forced labor. Which they do. Your middle of the road ultra-orthodoxy is the dangerous attitude here.

China doesn’t use forced labor for anything important. It’s mostly just a more extreme version of work in American prisons, although they focus more on the re-education than work aspect (it sounds like a good thing, but it isn’t). The people building bridges, viaducts, and tunnels, are not forced, are actually getting really skilled at it. China could stop all liaojiao and laogai tomorrow and virtually nothing would change about this.

What if you have to make the actual choice of paying them what can be afforded ir not paying at all?

Your dreams of having slaves are so revealing

There may have been a typo but your reading comprehension seems pretty horrible. Let me rephrase.

The choice is never between "Pay what it costs for people to live good lives" and paying less than that. The choice is between paying what the company can afford or having no job at all.

I'd prefer everyone be making enough money to buy a 2000 sqft house and groceries with enough left over for leisure but that option isn't on the table.

It’s not on the table because you don’t want it. That’s it.

Company A makes Widget for $20. It takes 1 Employee B hour to make a Widget. Widgets cost Company A $8 to manufacture. After accounting for management overhead, logistics and the cost of storage, Company A clears $10 per widget. Company A can only afford to pay Employee B $10 to break even, this is not a living wage.

In this scenario, you'd prefer Widgets not exist and Employee B not have a job.

Since you're going to say, "Raise the price of Widgets!". $20 is the ideal price point for product, any more or less and the volume sold * profit falls and the possible wage for Employee B will drop.

The money isn't going to the workers.

Complying with environmental regulation, permits, planning, etc

As if those are all detrimental to the society at large.

When they're obstructing the transition from road/air to rail, then yeah, I'd say those are indeed detrimental to the society at large. They shouldn't have to be detrimental, of course, but their routine abuse is something that needs acknowledged and mitigated.

Are profiteering government employees and environmental NGOs considered "labor"?

Please explain specifically what you’re suggesting here? Links welcome.

You know exactly what I'm suggesting, but here you go. California is as corrupt as NY.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/former-los-angeles-depu...

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-14/a-guide-...

https://www.sfexaminer.com/forum/san-francisco-government-sy...

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/city-hall-corruption-...

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/san-francisco-deve...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_scandals_in...

Bribes like these are absolute peanuts. It would be hard for them to add up to $100m, let alone a significant part of $100b.

Ah yes. First the problem isn't there. Then the problem is there, but it's too small to be an issue. If you have heard of the "narcissist's prayer," that is the defense that the ruling parties of CA and NY always run when you call them out.

These are just the ones who were both obvious and politically disfavored enough to get punished. Read about building in SF if you want to hear about the big boys.

Dragging projects out years dealing with bureaucracy, avoiding the actual efficient routes to minimize eminent domain, etc. It’s lots of legal, engineering, and planning work that just wouldn’t exist at all in a country serious about public works projects.

So the costs manifest both as labor that shouldn’t exist, costs just because the project is extended so long (administrative salaries and interest on loans), and costs to buy land from entitled owners.

If it was down to cost of labor and everything else was the same, we’d just pay double and be done in the same amount of time.

Labor + corruption

Reply on news.ycombinator.com