Many US solar factories are lagging. Except those China owns | Hacker News Reader

Many US solar factories are lagging. Except those China owns

reuters.com

I will point out that this is less of a problem than offshoring labor and/or manufacturing

- It results in more people trained in the industry here

- As a last result you can nationalize industries on your own soil

Now the second point is obviously a bit far fetched, but in the advent of a conflict with China where trade is disrupted, if your manufacturing plants and expertise are already in the country then you will face less disruption.

> As a last result you can nationalize industries on your own soil

You can only do this once in 40-60 years; and this will get everyone scared for their money and investors anxious to invest anything in your economy for a long time. Definitively not worth it (as the upside here is only the profit of the companies rather than security since they are already operating on your lands)

As a Canadian, I would not get scared to invest in the US if the US adopts a policy of nationalizing every industry owned by countries it is at war with.

Isn't this a prime example of how protectionism of nascent industries makes sense?

Convolt seems to indicate they would have been able to deliver on time if panel sales hadn't plunged 50%. Wouldn't heavy tarrifs on Chinese panels make a lot of sense here then?

I understand we need expansive solar yesterday, but that's even more of a reason to ensure we have the capacity to manufacture.

Ah yes, signalling on what we would have done.. Well, I'd totally have delivered panels if Convolt and Chinese companies were banned a few years ago. Make the market exclusive to me and I'll look into what the profit will be if I start producing them. I'll also be sure to prevent the domestic installer industry from taking advantage of low prices, only a small number of authorized ones will pay enough kick backs to have any availability. But its not all economic loss, the repair industry will need to be a lot better with my exclusive US panels.

Are tariffs the right answer? That raises the cost of solar, and cheap solar is ultimately everyone's goal. Shouldn't we instead be subsidizing solar production, contingent on companies like Convolt meeting delivery and efficiency targets?

Which is to say: Convolt complained about a drop in prices of 50%. Are we really willing—as a country—to double the cost of solar because our domestic companies haven't scaled up? This seems like a recipe for killing momentum around renewables.

Moreover, can you put tariffs on panels made domestically by a Chinese company? The panels aren't imported or exported.

I suppose you could tariff foreign manufactured panels and components to fund subsidies to domestic companies such that the two equalize in cost.

Tarrifs don't preclude subsidies, and can often help fund them.

As I said, while we need solar yesterday, can we really afford to not have it tomorrow because we failed to create a competitive industry?

> Moreover, can you put tariffs on panels made domestically by a Chinese company? The panels aren't imported or exported.

Foreign ownership of many strategic industries are tightly controlled.

Maybe this makes a tiny amount of sense when talking about imports, but if Chinese-owned factories in the US are outproducing American-owned factories, then China just has a better, more efficient system for producing solar panels. Maybe they should up their game instead of complaining about competition.

I think American companies need to go back to focusing on producing good products at good prices instead of singlemindedly pursing short term shareholder value. A lot of capability is lost that way.

Where is the incentive to do otherwise?

Whom is going to fund multiple executive and legislative candidates to get this done?

Not trying to dismiss your point outright, just while it's a good notion, I for one do not see a practical way of changing towards that on a large national level across multiple industries.

It’s an interesting form of economic populism: https://www.marketplace.org/2024/07/16/what-are-j-d-vances-e...

It is gaining support due to the destruction that has fallen on on our communities based on the current financialization model of our economy.

How does this address the issues of incentives, or rather lack thereof?

It addresses the issue of incentives by trying to create a counter balance to one sided economic forces. It appears as if using tariffs to equalize trade when there is a major surplus imbalance is one of those levers.

How though?

If people are maximizing return with the system the way it is, where is the incentive to actually change this on a large national scale?

Who's going to fund this change?

A few with populist rhetoric getting power is not achieving what you want.

I have more faith in Chinese will and engineering culture than American C suites, MBAs, and financialization. I wish this was not the case, but the inmates are running the asylum.

The US should not stop trying, but it's going to be a hot minute before execs across industries are flushed out into retirement (1.8M people 55+ age out every year in the US, roughly half of which are in the labor force participation rate) and new blood steps into those positions. Culture comes from the top.

I have more faith in the US gov or WTO being toothless in addressing an unfair playground

> Chinese-backed companies have distinct advantages over competitors in the U.S., such as heavily subsidized supply chains for raw polysilicon and unfinished solar modules, as well as low-cost government financing

That's true but the US industrial (and resource) policy does the same thing just in different areas. For example, we subsidize fossil fuels to a much larger degree than China does, but we're all OK with that because we rely on them.

The difference is internal subsidies are legal and export subsidies are not.

That is the legal difference.

If we start making things in America again we need to go back to sharing the profits more with workers so they can afford to purchase domestic products. As it stands now Americans can barely afford Chinese goods.

China installing the wind / solar equivalent of 5 nuclear power stations a week

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40982276

China Building Twice as Much Wind and Solar as Rest of World Combined

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40937714

I think this is one of those situations where we don't maintain a coherent/consistent thing that we want, and so we always have something to complain about.

0. (1990s) More trade ties will foster growth, and make conflict too expensive for all parties.

1. "We need to move towards green energy production! PV, wind etc need to be cheaper!"

2. "Oh no, China is producing solar panels too cheaply for the US to compete! We need to produce these critical components in the US -- lets set up tariffs."

3. "Oh no, factories on our soil using our labor are succeeding in producing solar panels, but for Chinese owners! We must ensure that PV is cheap, that American labor is producing them, and that American investors receive the profits!"

How did we go from wanting green energy to wanting the right rich people to get richer?

The green shitshow was just an opportunity to replace one energy supplier (oil barons) with another energy supplier (green barons). The group lobbying for it thought it's going to benefit their companies. Now that China is eating their lunch, there is no point to lobby for green anymore. None of them cares about the environment.

Good, hopefully this'll drive down solar panel costs.

Solar panels are very cheap.

I thought the US was imposing import tariffs on Chinese solar panels?

The article mentions that China is giving low-interest government loans to manufacturers. That's something we should offer in addition to subsidies.

Knowledge transfer at work! More please.

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