I don't follow spaceflight news in any great depth - but doesn't SpaceX also have a rocket thingy that keeps exploding?
Isn't "just launch over and over until it stops exploding" the way rockets are made these days?
I don't follow spaceflight news in any great depth - but doesn't SpaceX also have a rocket thingy that keeps exploding?
Isn't "just launch over and over until it stops exploding" the way rockets are made these days?
Starliner was not developed that way at all. It was supposed to be developed with much more up-front work to make sure that it would work correctly out of the gate. All of the mentioned Starliner tests were certification tests, whereas all of the Starship tests so far have been 100% expected to fail in some way, but with a more ambitious goal about how far it gets.
Starship: "We expect this to fail, but we will learn valuable lessons." -> Fails -> "That was fun! Next!"
Starliner: "We expect this to succeed." -> Fails. "Well, shit."
Fundamentally different engineering and design philosophies.
Starship and Starliner are very different things. Starship is the launch vehicle and a novel one (as in, it's not just a rebuild of an existing system, it's got new components and design elements). The failures we've seen so far were all, to some extent, expected though the particular modes of failure may not have been anticipated. They were launched with the intent of discovering the failure modes and responding to them with changes to design and manufacturing.
Starliner is now where Dragon Crew was with DM-2. Both tested with uncrewed flights and various test scenarios before their crewed flights. DM-2 and this flight are flights where nothing should go wrong. Failure, or critical failures at least, are unanticipated events. Otherwise you wouldn't be putting people in them yet (both vehicles are capable of operating autonomously, there's no reason to put a person in them if you aren't confident in the vehicle). The same philosophy applies to both Dragon Crew and Starliner at this stage.
The first time you build a physical rocket and test sending it up, it's almost certain to fail. Seeing how and why it explodes is pretty much the purpose of launching it!
That's not true. Many launch vehicles have succeeded on their first flight:
Titan II: Apr 8, 1964 (Gemini 1)
Saturn I (Block 1): Oct 27, 1961 (SA-1; only 1st stage active, 2nd and 3rd stage were present but disabled)
Saturn I (Block 2): Jan 29, 1964 (SA-2; only 1st and 2nd stage active; 3rd stage was present but disabled)
Saturn IB: Feb 26, 1966 (AS-201; first Saturn 1 flight with all 3 stages active)
Saturn V: Nov 9, 1967 (Apollo 4)
Space Shuttle: Apr 12, 1981 (STS-1, Columbia)
Atlas V: Aug 21, 2002
Falcon 9: Jun 4, 2010 (Dragon Spacecraft Qualification Unit test; the first stage disintegrated on re-entry, but that's irrelevant to success of the payload)
Falcon Heavy: Feb 6, 2018 (test flight; center core recovery failed, although again that arguably doesn't count)
Vulcan Centaur: Jan 8, 2024 (Peregrine lunar lander; the lander failed, but for reasons unrelated to the launch vehicle)
Indeed, I'd even say the norm is for success on first flight. And even when they do fail, most of the time it is a partial failure not a complete RUD – e.g. Delta IV Heavy's first flight reached orbit, but a lower orbit than planned; Ariane 6 reached the desired orbit, but the second stage failed to relight a second time for its deorbit burn.
What SpaceX has been doing with Starship is very novel – deliberately flying very early in development, when failure is more likely than success. This is different from traditional launch vehicle design process, in which you spend years doing extensive on-the-ground analysis, simulation and component testing, resulting in a high probability of success on the very first flight.
I think a lot of people are being misled into thinking SpaceX's way of doing things is the industry norm, when it isn't. Conversely, many other people misunderstand that SpaceX is intentionally doing something different, and are judging Starship's (expected) failures by the standards of earlier programs in which they aren't expected (failure after years of exhaustive on-the-ground development is a sign either of incompetence or really bad luck).
It's not novel. It's just not NASA. It was the norm in the early days of ICBM-type rockets. The original V-2 had about 700 failures before they hit a target. The original Atlas booster failed about half the time. "Nearly every component in the Atlas managed to fail at some point during test flights, from the engine combustion chambers to the tank pressurization system to the flight control system, but Convair engineers noted with some pride that there had never been a repeat of the same failure more than three times."[1] The military was fine with a high rate of failure at first in exchange for faster development.
Relatively novel. But also, more than just not NASA – it is also not contemporary ULA or Arianespace. It is also not Falcon 9/Heavy-era SpaceX, given both Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy completed their primary mission objectives flawlessly on their first flight.
> Titan II: Apr 8, 1964 (Gemini 1)
Titan II failed several times during development and there was considerable drama between the Air Force and NASA getting the Titan II man-rated because of this. The man-rated version, Titan II GLV, never failed, but by a similar token man-rated Starships have never failed (nor ever flown.). If we're comparing apples to apples, then Titan II had numerous failures if Starship has.
I was counting "Titan II the launch vehicle" separately from "Titan II the ICBM". However, if we are talking about Titan II the ICBM, here's what Wikipedia [0] has to say about its first launch: "The first Titan II launch, Missile N-2, was carried out on 16 March 1962 from LC-16 at Cape Canaveral and performed extremely well, flying 5,000 miles (8,000 km) downrange and depositing its reentry vehicle in the Ascension splash net." So, for the purpose of an ICBM, the first launch was a success.
Now, it is true that the second launch failed to reach its target due to a problem with the second stage. But I was responding to the claim that first launches normally fail, so I don't think a failure on the second launch, when the first launch was successful, is directly relevant to that claim.
> and there was considerable drama between the Air Force and NASA getting the Titan II man-rated because of this.
As Wikipedia notes, Titan II had a lot of problems with vibration. However, for the ICBM use case, these problems were not an issue – a nuclear warhead can handle a lot more vibration than a crewed space capsule can. I don't think we should classify the first launch of a rocket as a "failure" if it has issues which would interfere with planned human-rating but not with the success of its primary uncrewed use case.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-25C_Titan_II#Launch_histor...
Not only that but it's year later than planned and has failed most of its tests. And even if everything had worked as planned it would have lost money.
It's really not a very successful philosophy anymore.
https://x.com/SpaceX/status/1762237289231757406
https://x.com/SpaceX/status/1798692089766805813
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1792629142141177890
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1783929534955589885
Or SpaceX's summaries for after the test:
https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission/?missionId=starship-...
https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission/?missionId=starship-...
There also tend to be good articles from dedicated space reporters like Eric Berger, Stephen Clark or Michael Shaetz:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/we-know-starship-can-f...
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/06/spacex-starship-fourth-test-...
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/07/spacex-video-teases-po...
The "mainstream" reporting on these tends to be pretty awful and a glaring display of Gell-Mann Amnesia, but the more popular space journalists tend to be pretty good. I provided specific examples because there are also "journalists" known for intentionally distorting the facts to prop up their biases.
The goals for the next flight test seem to be to try to catch the booster (if they can get the necessary regulatory clearances) and to try to perform a controlled reentry of Starship again, this time with an upgraded heat shield to hopefully take less damage than the previous attempts. It'll end up being mainly a control systems and shield material test since future prototypes which are already being built have changes to the fin locations which also mitigate some of the heat shield issues seen in the previous test.
There's also talk of towing it to Australia after splashdown to study (also depends on if they can get the necessary regulatory clearances).
I wouldn't be surprised if the goals change though, I feel like they might decide to do another simulated catch over water for the booster (since while it was technically successful in IFT-4, one engine did blow up), and similarly I doubt they'll have the clearances to tow the ship to Australia as fast as they'd like.
http://web.archive.org/web/20240601140837/https://www.spacex...
and here's what they posted before the third flight test
http://web.archive.org/web/20240306183144/https://www.spacex...
Both have pretty clear language about them being test flights (especially the flight 3 post), and list what they hope to test.
edit: they have not yet made an official page on their website for the upcoming fifth test flight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship_integrated_fli...
although they have teased about trying to return Booster to the tower for a catch attempt.
If the cargo was a bunch of rocks and Boeing paid for the launch, you would have been right.
But this was a manned mission ordered by the US government. At this phase of development, nothing should be left to chance.
In fact even the rocket that Dragon launches on has a long history of explosions. First in the launches, then in the landings that resulted in some very spectacular booms. One time it landed perfectly upright, engines shut off, and one of the landing feet collapsed, causing it to fall over and BOOM. That was so funny :)
But now it has had a huge run of successful launches. I think it's a better approach because material science does not always behave exactly like the mathematical models. And space is one area where the margins of failure are extremely low.