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Comment by hggigg | Hacker News Reader

Very easy. You sell it on eBay and buy a Logitech MX Master.

Does the Logitech MX Master come with a driver that overcomes Apple's "unintentional" hobbling of non-Magic mice?

Seems not: https://github.com/pqrs-org/Karabiner-Elements/issues/2968

What does that link have to do with anything GGP said? Apple isn't involved in that bug; it's Logitech's own software intercepting events.

It does - it two different ways! The scroll wheel ratchet can be disabled (which is how I use it) or MX Options can override Smooth Scrolling. Or both.

It does. Although I don’t use it and use this instead: https://github.com/linearmouse/linearmouse

i use an MX master on my mac and it works great? in what way is it supposedly hobbled?

Out of the box, with no custom software installed, non-Apple mice (and even older Apple mice) will have extremely janky scrolling on modern versions of macOS.

Apparently, something internal to how the OS handles mouse scrolling was changed, and only the Magic Mouse gets a proper scrolling experience using built-in drivers. It is possible to fix this, but only with custom software (either drivers for specific mice or general tools for all mice).

is it janky, or is it tied very closely to the scroll input, so it's exactly as janky as your finger moves the scroll wheel on the mouse? because that's what it seems like to me.

for it to be any smoother, there would need to be some artificial smoothing of the scroll wheel input. and i'd rather not have that.

It's not so much "raw input" as "extremely erratic".

For example, when using the wired Mighty Mouse, the same motion of my finger will sometimes scroll a couple lines and sometimes scroll the entire page or not scroll at all. The same mouse plugged into Windows does not exhibit this problem.

> For example, when using the wired Mighty Mouse, the same motion of my finger will sometimes scroll a couple lines and sometimes scroll the entire page or not scroll at all. The same mouse plugged into Windows does not exhibit this problem.

This is not normal and you're possibly facing a bug. I have a Master 3S and mine scrolls exactly the same distance with every click of the wheel.

Ok, I just tested three different mice (Keychron M1, Mighty Mouse, Razer DeathAdder V2) on two different Macs (M1 Mac Mini and M1 MacBook Pro) and all 6 combinations exhibit the same janky scrolling (mostly, it either scrolls too slow/not at all or too fast). For the Razer and Keychron mice, the experience is more "consistently bad" while only the Mighty Mouse experience is inconsistent enough to be "extremely erratic". It might just be going bad, though (it's probably a decade old at this point).

I don't have any Logitech mice anymore, but maybe they've learned how to speak to Macs or worked with Apple to make them better. I had Logitech mice in the past, ca. 2-3 years ago, and they had the same problems then. I did notice that plugging in a non-Apple mouse results in a "Setup Your Keyboard" prompt, which I just quit out of (it's not a keyboard...), but maybe that would install a driver if I followed through? Though, the Mighty Mouse is an Apple mouse, and it still sucks on macOS but not on Windows.

I have never experienced this. I have a Logitech G203 mouse I use with my M1 Mac and of course I use the touch pad when I'm not at my desktop. I've never noticed a difference. Both seem butter smooth. I have no special software install. Am I missing something?

Apple is not nefariously gimping mice, they just don't see a world where people use non-Apple mice which have a touch surface for smooth scrolling. AFAIK this isn't an issue that can be solved with drivers. Logi's software has a persistent daemon that can convert your scrolling to smooth scrolling, but that requires leaving it open in the background. You can also use one of the dozens of open source apps that do the same thing.

I don't think it's nefarious, I think it's negligent. As I understand it, they changed something internal to how mouse motion is handled. The Magic Mouse speaks to the OS in a way that matches this change, and that was all they ever cared to ensure worked. They also don't support more than 3 buttons on a mouse well, because Apple doesn't make mice with more than 3 buttons. They did the same sort of thing with standard-DPI monitors; they didn't make them look bad on purpose, they just optimized for high-DPI monitors and didn't care about the others.

And yes, fixing this requires custom software.

> They also don't support more than 3 buttons on a mouse well, because Apple doesn't make mice with more than 3 buttons

This is not true. Again, I have a Master 3S and I have natively, through macOS settings, bound Mouse 4 and 5 to mission control.

I can't recall ever seeing this option with the old System Preferences, so it might be new to System Settings; but either way, it's not universal. I have a 5-button Razer mouse attached to test with right now, and the "Mouse buttons" option doesn't appear in System Settings. It does, however, show up in the System Settings search results, which is nice and confusing ("here's a setting we found, that doesn't actually exist for you").

In order for Apple to be negligent by not tending to a matter they'd first have to have the responsibility of tending to it to begin with.

It is not my understanding that Apple has any responsibility for ensuring equal access and capabilities for third-party accessories on their own weird, proprietary, invented-in-house computing systems.

Therefore, it is also not my understanding that they can be negligent on these matters.

They broke things that used to work. They had other reasons for doing it, but they also didn't really care to fix the problems it created. Their ecosystem is somewhat isolated from regular PCs and caters to a different clientele so I'm sure it made business sense to prioritize that way. Hence, there's at least some intent involved, just not outright malice.

Never attribute to malice or stupidity that which can be explained by moderately rational individuals following incentives in a complex system.

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