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Comment by mullingitover | Hacker News Reader

> They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country

I hope we can take their word for it, and they weren't abusing this power, because Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process[1]:

> The majority of the detentions carried out under the state of emergency were arbitrary because they violated due process guarantees through absence of clear judicial orders, prolongation of administrative detentions, lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here.

[1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america...

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So deeply ethically puzzled about the situation in Salvador that I'm linking it to the trolley problem.

Salvador could stay being one of the countries with the highest murder and rape, and kinda respecting human rights by following the presumption of innocence VS could put 2% of the population in jail to raise the quality of life for the remaining 98%?

I even heard someone say that Bukele proposed that any country that want Salvador to respect human rights for those arrested could just take the prisoners as refugees. (No source on that).

Which bring me back to the trolley problem, would you want your own country to take those ~75.000 people as refugee and consider them all as innocent?

> don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here

Disappearing means no paper trail.

These are mass arrests. Also problematic. But closer to a martial strategy than a civil one. But when you’re the murder capital of the world, maybe that’s merited.

It's not "old fashioned", I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs.

Sadly, same goes for a huge part of the mainstream media that becomes an echo chamber for them (Guardian, NYT for example that used to be reference of truth but lost that status).

Don't take my word for it, please take the time to read opposite views and try to honestly make your own opinion.

Do you have any credible sources?

"Do your own research" is a pretty thin rebuttal to "here's a source by a well regarded NGO".

And if you are saying Amnesty International is feeding propaganda through the mainstream media, that's also going to need some credible sources. They are generally considered a fairly highly factual organization.

I didn't say it was old fashioned, I said I was old fashioned because I can't cheer for the government effectively 'disappearing' large numbers of people. In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing. We have parades to honor people who died fighting against it.

Amnesty International isn't editorializing and this isn't a remotely controversial claim: the roundups happened via emergency powers which, by design, denied due process. It's not a secret, El Salvador wasn't trying to hide this.

The secret isn't that El Salvador is breaking human rights law, the secret is that El Salvador is an amazing place to visit and it won't break the bank. I can say first hand that Mexico and Ecuador have become sketchy; you can't feel completely safe anywhere IMO in those countries.

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God you're dense. Who said I visited El Salvador? Even if I did, judge much? Are you on the way to jump off a cliff because of the arms we're gifting Israel?

> In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing

If by “enthusiastically” you mean “reluctantly”, then yes.

What would be Amnesty’s agenda in feeding us propaganda about El Salvador?

Not just that, the tradeoffs in developing countries are different on the ground. They have to do practical decision making based on limited resources and issues. The alternative is simply criminals taking over.

Do you have evidence that basic human rights and due process is unusually expensive and not feasible for developing countries ?

Because that doesn't seem to be the case given we've seen much of the world become developed over the last 50 years. And almost all have a functioning judicial system.

It is not only in developing countries, even in developed countries it is a bit of a problem, the rise of “far right” in Europe etc is an example to this.

* Latin America has a sad history of using what's been called "enforced disappearance" [0]. It's sickening that it seems to be happening again in El Salvador in 2024.

* There's no justification for ethnic or ideologic cleansings of any type, period. No, making tourists happy is not a good reason for state terrorism (nothing is).

* Bukele is untrustworthy. See "liquid ideology" on [1], just for a start.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Social_issues

> I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs.

Which parts of Amnesty International's statement are inaccurate and why ?

You know because we want to form our own opinion.

NYT has never been different than it is now. It has always been a willing propaganda outlet, and has always pushed the agenda ownership wanted.

You just liked when it was saying before.

It is a balancing act: If you follow procedure, you'll be too slow to make an impact. If you don't follow procedure, you'll throw innocent Pablo in jail, but your actions will make impact.

Politicians are specifically elected for this. Otherwise, you just put bureaucrats; because what difference would it make?

> Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process

Due process just means... process that is due. But (for better or for worse, depending on how you view this) it could totally be the case that nothing was due in the particular situation, at least legally. Since people look at this from a USA angle, here's the US constitution:

"The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Notice that in the scenario described, a right such as habeas corpus simply isn't due. You can't be violating due process if there was no process due.

Notice this isn't pedantry; national security has always been something states have at least partially prioritized over individual rights. I make no judgment of the morals of the situation, but I thought it was worth pointing out that rights aren't as absolute (legally, anyway) as people think they are.

It’s clearly not an ideal situation. It might well be the start of something very dark. But also it’s worth examining how unserious some of Amnesty’s quoted claims are:

> lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts,

Because the gangs will bust them out

> and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees.

Because the gangs will kill the judges

Of note: the US accuses Bukele of essentially bribing the gangs not to make too much fuss. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us...

When Juan Manuel Santos negotiated a peace treaty with the FARC, he won a Nobel. When Bukele makes El Salvador the safest country in the Americas, there are 'explosive accusations' of bribery.

Is it not functionally similar? Santos was defense minister during the Colombian False Positives scandals which was arguably much more evil than anything Bukele has done [0].

Can't make heads or tails of this, honestly.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal The extrajudicial murder of innocent young men, conducted in order to boost body count OKRs for promotions and yearly bonuses.

EDIT: the purpose of this comment is not to be pro-Bukele, but to encourage critical examination of the _framing and wording_ English-language publications use when discussing Latin American politics. As a Venezuelan, I am especially wary of authoritarians and you do not have to convince me about the slippery slope of judicial abuses of power.

> Is it not functionally similar

No. Negotiating a peace treaty in which the gangs disarm in exchange for political participation versus paying them to be quiet for the moment are fundamentally different.

It’s analogous to the U.S. strategies in Germany and Japan, on one hand, and in Afghanistan, on the other hand.

It looks like the first step to calm down things before he can arrest them all

Not saying they should have due process but there flip side is they will take 20 years to get through the queue while more pop up. Not sure how they have have it both ways.

I believe Bukele has claimed that the state is working to get trials for everyone, it's just taking a long time.

I totally believe that El Salvador lacks the necessary state capacity to try so many people rapidly.

My idea: To release innocent people faster, let friends/family members/etc. post a bond. Prisoners are tried in order from highest to lowest bond value. The bond is returned to the family if the prisoner is found innocent. If they're found guilty, the bond goes to the Salvadorean healthcare system or something like that.

You’re old fashioned.

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