Electric cars could last much longer than you think
wired.com
wired.com
The bigger issue I think is most of the cars are teslas, which didn’t behave like a normal automaker for better or worse. For example the work done during the pandemic to avoid supply chain crunches may result in a maintenance headache a few years from now.
I still dream of the US/EU coming up with a standardized set of chassis/engines instead of having dozens of companies independently spending millions trying to solve the same problems
Deep down I know all this complexity is needed because it generates a shit ton of money from fake competition, maintenance schedules, parts price gouging, &c. The inefficiency and waste is a feature
You hear the same think about electric bikes, and the argument has the same fatal flaws. Current e-bikes are massively better than what was on the market 3, 5, and 10 years ago. Standardizing them at any point would have been catastrophic, and we must assume that standardization now would also be catastrophic.
[1: That said, all cars are converging on the exterior shape of the Intrepid, in a process similar to carcinization among animals. Weird!]
BYD has done that, with their E-Axle. The E-Axle has the axle, wheels, and motor. It goes with a BYD "8 in one" electronics power box and a battery. Here is their pitch to Japanese carmakers.[1] Google translated version follows. (Google Translate has become much better at Japanese lately.) The automaker buys the E-axle, power box, and battery, plugs them together, and hooks it to the driver interface with CANbus. This approach seems to have cut the cost of BYD's cars.
Other companies are now marketing E-axles for trucks.[2] Trucking has a lot of builders who start with a bare chassis and add industry-specific bodies and equipment - ambulance, tow truck, etc. BYD itself sells light truck sized versions, and Dana sells heavy truck dual axle versions.
It's quite possible that a mounting point standard will emerge for this, like NEMA motor mounts or jet engine pylons. Then you can use different E-axle vendors.
[1] https://byd.co.jp/e-life/manufacturer_stories04/
[1] https://byd-co-jp.translate.goog/e-life/manufacturer_stories...
[2] https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/what-is-an-e...
(This would be an improvement over the present Stellantis product. Stellantis, the parent of Jeep, Chrysler, Fiat, Peugeot, etc. got a Boeing-type financial CEO, who ran the business into the ground while being paid a record salary.[1])
[1] https://theweek.com/business/economy/stellantis-problems-pri...
After that, you'll start losing out on lost innovation that wasn't allowed to happen.
"Dozens of companies independently spending millions solving the same problems" only seems wasteful if you don't think about this in terms of at least a couple of steps of game theory. Competing co's come up with a variety of different solutions, leaving us in a more robust state with lots of different options.
Also, good luck getting a standard that the US and EU agrees on - look at how differently the free market solved the car problem in both of those places. Europeans and Americans want different things from their vehicles.
In the standard case this doesn’t matter as things last a long time inside an engine. The same is probably true for EVs.
When things go wrong all the repairability issues mean you’re out a car unless you’re willing to invest in repair. Is a 30K car worth a 20K repair bill? The Audi service department is happy to walk you to the sales department if not.
http://www.krasnobrodzka-racing.com/alusil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_985nH-gUiU
Alusil sleeve job ~$4K for 6 cylinder, BUT you can go ~$1500 cast iron sleeves.
Mahle manufactures those sleeves in Poland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GgPPIZHl-c always surprising to see how they "season" new parts by letting them rust in open air to relieve casting stresses. There is a good story about BMW racing engines being build from selected used blocks just sitting rusting away behind factory building for years.
The factory coatings do fail in some cases- usually in specific engine configurations with issues, but very often last 300k+ miles... on the smaller bore M96 engines cylinder/coating failures are almost unheard of, even with very high mileage and lots of hard track use. Personally, I'll just stick with the smaller bore engines, and in the unlikely event it fails get a good used block where the factory coating is still intact. There's tons of the 2.7 and 3.2 M96 Boxster engines out there still running great with 300k+ miles, and you can buy a good used one for a few grand.
Thats opposite of what I said :) Only the startup noise applies, but lets not pretend M96 sound great :)
When something becomes veblen good logic goes out the window. >$100K 30 year old car restorations arent meant to make them peak performers, it becomes matched numbers everything as factory wankfest for cars sitting in a collection or driven only occasionally on the weekends. There is very little incentive doing cheap repair when everyone believes in expensive ones.
>There's tons of the 2.7 and 3.2 M96 Boxster engines out there still running great with 300k+ miles, and you can buy a good used one for a few grand.
Wanna bet they all have scored cylinders? :) Same goes for BMW Nikasil, no such thing as cheap used block with intact coating.
It is the electric motors that use rare earths but sounds like companies are moving away from that.
You are talking simple engines, I'm talking high-end engines.
The circuits driving it probably have a higher failure rate, but we've gotten so good at manufacturing electrical circuits it still seems much easier and cheaper than a mechanical engine.
It's the other way about. Batteries in Chinese cars are mostly lithium iron phosphate. Not a lot of rare earths there. The motors are mostly permanent magnet motors and they definitely do have rare earths.
But anyway the name rare earths is mostly a misnomer, they aren't especially rare, less so than gold, copper, etc. They are just not conveniently located for extraction.
The batteries are expensive simply because the replacement battery market is not yet a large low risk mature market. This is in part because the batteries are lasting longer than most people, the manufacturers included, expected.
This analysis is really just relevant for cars that someone would want to keep well-maintained for 20+ years at significant expense. Most EVs are boring so I don't expect them to be in that category either. But if you did really get attached to one, you might have to rebuild it from scratch with totally different internals to keep it going, and it would only look like the original on the outside.
I’ve replaced three engines in the past ~15 years. The first was caused by a head bolt over-torqued from the factory, which led to a non-visible gasket failure and ultimately coolant making its way into the cylinders and destroying the block. The second was a failed pistol skirt. The third seized due to a manufacturing defect in a cam bearing.
All of those problems would have been cheaper and easier to fix in a 1980s-era vehicle. The oldest of these was a 2000, though, and it was cheaper to replace the entire engine than it would have been to buy the parts to repair them.
That doesn’t even include labor - and the labor required for many things these days is much higher than it once was.
Shop fees and hours are very expensive for repair. When basic repairs involve disassembling the entire front of the car they add up. This is why YouTube mechanics often just drop an engine subframe and get an alignment after.
Third party mechanics don’t get access to all the tools and software anymore. VAG decided to increase the pain by requiring a license fee to access alignment information from next year onward for Audi, Porsche, and other brands.
Normally for anything I won’t wrench myself I’m happy enough with Pepboys service but increasingly they have to turn me away because they lack the tooling, software, or expertise for a job, and we’re no where near talking about machining an engine.
Rebuilding that damaged engine needs a specialty shop. They’re not just spinning a bore hone on a drill anymore. Coupled with overall improved designs and there just isn’t the same market for the work that there used to be.
It is possible for an EV to be serviced and remain operable for long enough to become an antique, but no modern EVs are built that way. Most modern ICE cars aren't built that way either but they have a much better chance at longevity because their parts don't really have a limited shelf life, and there is a large aftermarket for many of them.
> defective parts usually break in boring ways
I think this is far more true on an EV than an ICE. Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded.
I think one could argue this but the fact is that any one of those cells can destroy the battery, giving you thousands of little time bombs stacked on top of each other. The labor to change one cell is also approximately as much as to change the entire battery on any EV, and labor is a huge part of the cost of replacement. Nobody is going to take an EV apart to just change one cell. On the other hand, people do often take whole engines apart to change seals that cost $20.
>But the lack of integrated cooling that enables this means the battery doesn't last. Better to get a car where the battery lasts the life of the vehicle.
Better to not get an EV if you want it to last or even be a collector's item. "Life of the vehicle" can mean "practically as long as you feel like fixing it" if the design is good.
> Batteries generally fail very predictably and are generally still usable even when degraded.
We don't know how unstable these EV batteries will become in 10, 20, or 50 years. An ICE car would not explode or burn down after such a long period, even with the heaviest use and abuse. But an EV can easily do so. Then there are the flooding and accident risks. I am seriously nervous having old lithium batteries in my house inside of old consumer gadgets, and those are tiny. EV batteries magnify that problem 1000x.
Hobbyists regularly do both. Professionals charge thousands to do either.
> Better to not get an EV if you want it to last or even be a collector's item. "Life of the vehicle" can mean "practically as long as you feel like fixing it" if the design is good.
Neither are going to be a straightforward to keep running 50 years from now as a car from the seventies, but a Tesla is going to be far easier to keep running for 50 years than a modern gasoline car. 1/10th the number of moving parts, far less wiring, far fewer computers, far fewer part count, et cetera, far less regular maintenance, et cetera.
> We don't know how unstable these EV batteries will become in 10, 20, or 50 years
Yes we do.
> An ICE car would not explode or burn down after such a long period, even with the heaviest use and abuse.
Yes they do, and at a higher frequency than electric cars do.
> I am seriously nervous having old lithium batteries in my house inside of old consumer gadgets, and those are tiny. EV batteries magnify that problem 1000x.
No they're not. EV batteries are properly managed, unlike random gadgets. They're safer, not more dangerous.
Hobbyists are also building cars that run on steam power. I did not mean literally nobody is taking EV cars apart to change one cell. But it is actually very dumb to do so, and it makes zero sense to do professionally given the tremendous liability and expense involved. Taking an ICE apart to change rubber seals might cost a few thousand. And the car cannot really explode if you do that wrong, like an EV battery mistake can. Changing an EV battery costs tens of thousands. One of those things is more economical and reasonable than the other.
>Neither are going to be a straightforward to keep running 50 years from now as a car from the seventies, but a Tesla is going to be far easier to keep running for 50 years than a modern gasoline car. 1/10th the number of moving parts, far less wiring, far fewer computers, far fewer part count, et cetera, far less regular maintenance, et cetera.
Hahaha you've got no idea. Tesla is probably the worst example. Everything is proprietary, they don't sell parts or software to consumers. Other cars don't require a mechanic to also be a reverse engineer. You can whine about moving parts all you want but there are many ICE's still in service a hundred years after they were manufactured.
>>We don't know how unstable these EV batteries will become in 10, 20, or 50 years
>Yes we do.
I didn't realize I would have the honor of meeting a time traveller today.
>>An ICE car would not explode or burn down after such a long period, even with the heaviest use and abuse.
>Yes they do, and at a higher frequency than electric cars do.
They DON'T. And even when they do somehow catch fire, usually due to some external factor, they can easily be extinguished with WATER. EVs cannot be extinguished and all the water sprayed on them becomes heavily polluted.
>No they're not. EV batteries are properly managed, unlike random gadgets. They're safer, not more dangerous.
Again you prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Random gadgets have charge and thermal regulators for their batteries, so they are much like EVs in that regard. Furthermore, any one of the thousands of cells inside an EV can ignite the rest. That has happened many times, for example in the case of an Australian cement truck EV. The manufacturer discovered the problem, after the truck burned to the ground in a huge disaster.
No ICE car has ever caught fire from being splashed with water. EVs do this all the time! But sure, we're supposed to believe that they will be maintainable and economical to fix 50 years from now. Give me a break and gtfo with that nonsense.
I'll be the first to admit that the infrastructure is lacking. I live in the Canadian prairies. There are only a few cities and there are towns every 10-20 minutes apart. Every town has a gas station (if they are open when you are driving through), but the same can't be said for charging stations. Thankfully there are enough stations for me to drive anywhere from Edmonton to Winnipeg without getting stranded, but only just. In two years of ownership over yet to run into a situation where the only chargers are all down, and I've only once seen a single machine that is down. Many of the stations are about 100km apart and my vehicle's range is practically 250km (from 90% to 20%), down to 200km in winter. It also doesn't help that within Saskatchewan almost all of those charges are the original 50kW, meaning it takes about an hour to charge every two hours of driving. It's definitely at the early adopter stage. But my car is capable of charging at 227kW. Stopping at a more modern 200kW charger it only takes 15 minutes - that's just enough time to use the washroom and grab a snack. Even with the 50kW charges all I end up doing is sitting down for a quick burger or sandwich. I don't mind the every two hours part at all; even with my ICE I would stop everyone two hours for washroom and a stretch and a snack, and that takes 15 minutes anyway.
Having home charging definitely makes a huge difference. I never fast charge unless traveling to see family. Within the city I plug it in at home every few days just to top it up. The efficiency really shows itself in the city. In my area the winters are cold enough that everybody plus in their cars to keep their engine block warm. Availability is universal at homes, including apartment buildings. Using even 120V charging is practical at these places and that's plenty to keep a vehicle topped up for daily city driving. Still, I won't deny that at-home level 2 driving really makes it a painless experience.
As far as practically today, I agree, it's not easy for everyone just yet. As far as the general sentiment that EVs are worse vehicles, I encourage people to try driving one. The people who think they are slow and weak couldn't be any more wrong. My lowly SUV has the power and torque of a large truck, but without the noise and smoke. I absolutely love driving it and I never want to go back.
I expect that as more people have them, infrastructure will follow and that will make them even more accessible to more people. That's just how new technologies work. EVs are just at the point of crossing the chasm as they say. It won't be long until they are commonplace. Vehicle manufacturers are already going all in.
I have owned two EVs: a 2020 Hyundai Kona and a 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5. I only switched because I had my heart set on the Ioniq 5 and only bought the Kona because the Ioniq 5 was really hard to find.
My Kona was exactly the same as the ICE version, just with an EV conversion. The interior and controls were identical. All of the EV specific stuff just replaced the ICE equivalent in the instrument cluster. Yes, it had an infotainment system and you could control a bunch more stuff from there, but that's true of all new vehicles. That Kona was the perfect example of how EVs don't have to be any different than the familiar ICE. Anyone could just get in and drive without even knowing it was an SUV.
My IONIQ 5 is certainly different - that's part of the appeal - but that's largely only in the exterior aesthetics. The controls and driving are still exactly like a regular ICE. They have adopted the full LCD panel instrument cluster, but again, many new ICEs have. Steering wheel, stalks, accelerator and brakes - they are all designed to feel just like the familiar automatic transmission. The only difference in controls is that the "transmission" control is now also on a stalk, since there's no need for it to be down on the center console. The default drive mode is set to feel just like driving an automatic with the same amount of delay and ramp up in power and the slight engine braking. Press a button and now it's full EV - instant response, no engine braking - it's the ideal race car that does exactly what you ask without imposing mechanical restrictions. It's truly a unique experience in a good way.
Elon Musk certainly doesn't help. His push for different for different's sake, trying to convince everyone that EVs will change the world, pressuring governments to let him bypass regulations and workers' rights, and his quickly declining sanity really hurt the image of EVs, since he is the image of Tesla and Tesla is the image of EVs.
I sincerely look forward to a future where the traditional automotive manufacturers become a large part of the EV market and some semblance of standardization and normalcy returns to the automotive world.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that someone will start making solid state replacements at some point. That could be a nice business if the costs ever get down low enough.
Looking over at power tools and their battery situation, I wouldn't hold my breath.
And it would be great if batteries, including their mounting frame and cooling system, were standardized in such a way that one would not only be able to let a shop replace the battery, but also have the option to buy a car without a battery and either reuse the old one or buy a new one from a better brand.
At the current rate, the suspension and other components seem more likely to fall apart (it was constructed in a hurry, in a tent after all) before the battery hits its EOL. Regardless, I hope to be able to reclaim the degraded cells to use in home energy storage if it is economically viable.
They're trivial to replace when the time comes.
I'll never buy a car that a random service cant fix, bmws for example so far seems easy peasy to achieve this, which brings TCO almost down to cheap basic brands.
for instance https://www.batterielektro.no/elbil/, https://carfix.no/carfix-teknikere-kan-apne-og-reparere-elbi...
NASA did a bunch of longitudinal studies (long time duration , same components over that range) with Lion batteries and found almost no long term degradation after the initial capacity loss. Same for solar panels.
I have been toying with a spec for a BMS that monitors and logs the health of every single battery both on charge and discharge.
What is more exiting, is that Sodium cells are much tougher and can be discharged to zero volts and stored in a discharged state. That also means that they can be shipped discharged and items incorporating them don't degrade while on the shelf or in shipping.
From my understanding Jeep was really cautious with the battery, on the display you will see 0%, but it's always at least 20% of remaining charge in actuality.
The point of the article, though, is lots of people still spread FUD a out EV batteries and the data we have shows that batteries are not a problem. They last longer than transmissions and engines on average.
The "rotting frames and body panels" thing was certainly common where I'm from when I grew up, but these days it's very normal to see 20+ year cars on the road with very little salt related damage. I have a 2007 Acura MDX that is stored outside for the past 8 years, never washed by my parents who I gifted it to, and driven through some of the worst winter road conditions possible. Visiting in the winter you'd think it was a grey vehicle (it's black) from all the salt spray adhered to it which stays on until it's driven in the rain come springtime.
It shows utterly zero frame or body rust even today. I expect the rubber seals and such to fail before anything else. This is pretty much the norm.
Cars are not made like they were in the 1980's and 90's any more. The coatings and type of materials are vastly different and improved. There are certainly models out there that have problems and you can get unlucky, but it's no longer a rule of thumb.
It's not just vehicles though. It's pretty much endemic to all things. People get anchored to their "formative years" and then never update their priors. I assume it takes a generation or two for such things to die off and the "common knowledge" to be updated. EV battery tech will be one of these things - we will be anchored to the common tropes that were true for first and second generation vehicles but no longer are for quite a long time.
Sub-frame, not so much!
A quick google shows graphs for "Average age of the US used car fleet" to be around 6 years in 1975, and increasing to 12 years today. Not enough time today before family arrives to really dig further though.
There was very little visible rust on the body.
(To be clear, if I didn't need more space inside nowadays I would absolutely be delighted to get another Corolla; I think it's a trooper for making it 10 years in this weather. I also replaced the exhaust system and then sold the car for significantly more than the repair cost to someone who wasn't planning on keeping it in quite a snowy climate.)
The more I look at newer cars, the more I tend to believe that they will last exactly as long as the warranty, then disintegrate into repair hell.
There are very few all-aluminum cars. Audi A8 was for a while and might still be. I am not aware of anything cheaper.
[1] https://automotivedictionary.org/dictionary-of-automotive-te...
Monthly car wash subscriptions are pretty popular in winter climates.
Corrosion takes time. It doesn't bore holes into metal on contact. It's road salt not the blood from Alien.
The Prius has a traditional lead acid battery for starting the engine that's been replaced a couple of times. The traction batteries (the ones that help push the car forward and are charged from regenerative braking) are the originals.
Which might make a difference or might not, I don't know
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_...
If those patents hadn't been, or had they been shorter lived, or if antitrust law was more robust, we might have seen a lot more investment in optimizations on and variations of the NiMH chemistry.
What a fascinating world I'll never live in.
Of course catalysts are consumed slowly, but you still don't want any disturbances in the supply of a key element.
Time will tell but I'm willing to bet they were right.
California can barely keep the lights on as it is. This doesn't even scratch the surface that most are not the privileged few with at-home charging.
I’ve never heard of that, and even in countries like Norway where new car sales are predominantly EVs, it will be a long time until it can replace the entire fleet.
So in 10 years the distance capacity has degraded by 11%.
Further info: In deciding to buy an electric car we looked at our driving usage patterns, and almost 100% of our regular car trips are less than 50km. It was also going to be the third car for the family since we've got a newly licensed member.
We've only had it a couple of months, but it's been perfect so far. It's already everyone's preferred vehicle.
I was researching them for a second car some years ago, and already then it seemed like many had lost almost half the range after 150kkm or so. That according to what people wrote in the ads when trying to sell them, so I assume it was not an overly pessimistic view. :-)
Congratulations on snagging one with excellent battery health. Perhaps your car spent its life in a very friendly climate, where the battery never got either hot nor cold?
Edit: For the record I've driven a few of them over the years and found them excellent A-to-B transport devices. Boring, but great.
The place I bought the Leaf from imports them from a Japan, so I assume he's fairly selective in choosing which ones to bring across.
He also said that the Nissan themselves were expecting shorter life from the batteries than what ended up occurring - along the lines of setting up battery recycling / refurbishment / repurposing facilities.
I'm actually considering getting a newer model (ZE1, 2018+) to replace one of the other ICE cars, but two months isn't enough time to form a definitive opinion. I think the newer model has options for Vehicle-to-X charging, which makes things interesting. But I'm probably getting way ahead of myself.
Excellent 50-70kmh acceleration for a safe lane changes and decent enough when getting up to merge speed on an on-ramp.
https://www.dal.ca/news/media/media-releases/2024/12/18/medi...
Money quote:
They found it lasted more than 20,000 cycles before it hit the 80 per cent capacity cut-off. That translates to driving a whopping eight million kilometres.
This lab has ties with Tesla, so we can expect to see such batteries in their offerings eventually. My bet is stationary storage will be their first application as any capacity thrown at it will be charged/discharged on a daily basis if its levelized cost in low enough.
Maybe you were driving driving 1% more efficiently?
Another example of how KWh is the wrong unit for energy storage — gets so many people confused and they don’t know the difference between storage and power.
And that seems to be quite relatable if my circumstances are known by the recipient.
Many of these characterstics will be shared among us (climate, roads, landscape, charging infrastructure etc).
Part of it is getting their thought processes away from "peak requirements" and into the direction of "average everyday" which for me is a more important measure.
I wouldn't recommend cars be advertised this way but person to person its quite useful.
Any reason why/why not?
They also wonder whether it's practical to own one without having access to home charging.
Explaining it this way conveys the "impact" to daily life better than talking strictly about numbers.
Me saying "usually I charge once a week while getting groceries" is lived experience and quite relatable (I hope).
I also try to be honest and not make any claims about use cases which are not mine (I'm not trying to sell something). I very seldomly do long drives > 2h so if someone does that regularly, my personal experience won't apply.
Of course if people want to nerd out over kwH and kW I'm ready to do that as well but many don't care about that.
Edit: Everybody knows how gas cars work. No need to explain that. But my friends and family are curious about EVs.
Can charge at home? super convenient & time savings.
Charge at work? may be subsidized by employer, but you may have to go move the car during the day, etc.
"while shopping for groceries" is an interesting "3rd space" - you're going there consistently, so if charging works on that time frame (charger space available, doesn't require you to delay after shopping or interrupt the shopping, etc.), it's a great fit.
Looks readable, human-scale, easier to type than kWh.
To compare, 1 gallon of car fuel is about 120 MJ of thermal energy content, so about 40 MJ of mechanical output energy content, if we acccount for the ICU efficiency and transmission losses.
As an EE I much prefer kWh, though its not all that hard to add the factor 3.6 if you really want MJ
I think you have curse of knowledge, frankly.
ChatGPT: The sentence has a minor issue with the term "kilowatts". Kilowatts measure power, not energy, so it should be "kilowatt-hours" (kWh) if you're referring to the energy capacity remaining in the battery. "
For all the negativity of AI i keep finding examples where it's very clear "you could do a much better job with less effort if you leaned on AI a little". Journalism especially.
KWh (kilowatt hours) is a measure of energy, so using it to describe energy storage capacity is correct. Using KW for this is wrong.
In Germany, the sales of EV vehicles have not picked up, people are buying petrol engines again, due to the perceived lack of reliability of EV vehicles and its resale value.
P3's portfolio reads more like the place where companies like BMW, Mercedes and VW would request a one-stop-shop package to make EVs look attractive. Nothing hints at them being experts in EVs.
I'm not sure why the perceived reliability outweighs any of these issues.
What are you basing this on?
A Model 3 is around the median price of a new vehicle in 3 places I just checked - USA, Germany and UK.
https://www.p3-group.com/en/p3-experte/electric-powertrain/
The way they introduced and describe it is weird though.
Studies done by industry partners that are all backed by China… is pretty much as bad as “Volvo (100% Geely Automotive, China) petitioning for EV semis.
Do NOT take my word for it. Call your dealerships that sell EVs and ask if they can repair a single bad cell in your out of warranty battery pack. Almost no one will take that work on. It’s actually dangerous and you won’t pay the labor cost.
Best case you can buy a used pack from a roll over or other wreck and good luck to you.
It is a ticking bomb with a $30-90k price tag. Also no discounts because nobody repairs batteries.
Unfortunately ,none of the companies is publicizing their prices so you have to take mine and the rest of redditors word for it.
A quick google search corroborates my numbers, if Google is to be trusted.
A good battery test (that can detect ‘juicing’) will only cost a few hundred dollars - it’s just part of your pre-inspection reports, like you’d do for any second-hand vehicle.
>But there is growing indication that EV batteries are much sturdier than those in smartphones. Just for starters, you don’t tend to recharge your EV every day like your handset.
I want to reach through the screen and strangle someone.
This type of article is written by someone pushing for EVs (hey China) or who has bought one.
Reality check… a bad battery on your own after an expired warranty will likely total your vehicle. Read that a few times.
I have in my shop a Fiat 500e. To pull the battery, you need to pull and disassemble the entire rear end suspension, just to access the battery. Once you do that, you are rewarded with 600lb pain in the ass. Disconnect the electrical and cooling lines, you can pull it down and open it. You are greeted with 400V or so of more pain. Need composite tools, 1000V gloves, and if you were to say fall on it, you may die. Remind me how many systems in an ICE vehicle will kill a mechanic? You can get to each cell to replace them; but no one will sell you one. So best you can do is to buy a used one; run your chances. And in order to charge these Samsung cells, good luck there too, since there is no single cell charger you can buy. You might be able to trickle charge to 3.5V… reverse this to re-assemble, plan to pay more than the vehicle is worth.
Here is the hard fact… ready?
These vehicles are disposable.
I love EV for its real purpose, a second vehicle for town/city. It was a mistake to market them as ready to roll only vehicles.
It’s Samsung cells when you get down to it.
Nothing is serviceable currently.
If you have a bad battery, it is highly likely your vehicle will be totaled.
As such I've never seen EVs marketed as either "the only car you need to own" or "if you're just commuting short distances they're perfect".
With the purchase of a car, or any purchase of anything, people gotta do their research for their unique use-case. And if the Fiat owner just pays the money to you for the repair, and they don't have to risk their life, and aren't bothered by the repair quote, then they might still be a happy Fiat customer.
It sounds as if you're just a annoyed about the Fiat in your shop, and you've got some short term "pain in the arse" resentment that's yet to fade (which I totally understand because I get the same way about specific annoyances at my work - current issue "is the stupidest thing I've ever come across, why would anyone design anything like that?").
Pick a better example than a friggin' Fiat. And, BTW, you've done nothing to refute TFA's claim that you quoted. No, prefacing with "Automotive engineer" is not a refutation. Yeah, pulling the battery is a PITA. So is pulling an fossil fuel engine. That doesn't make either one "disposable".
Please tell me what you think is different in the battery and motor system between a rivian Tesla GM Fiat whatever.
They’re all disposable until they’re designed to be battery serviced, and none are currently.
There are no parts from the OEs, there are no tools, the packs are not meant to be serviced, and it is SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS work.
The same was true for the ICE vehicle third-party repair industry 100 years ago.
It seems like your objection to BEVs (i.e. they can’t be repaired) is directly refuted by the fact that you yourself repair BEVs. Maybe I’ve misunderstood your argument though.
Awesome, in 100 years your EV vehicle won’t be totaled if the batteries dies.
We diagnose failure, we don’t repair for customers.
There’s already a fledgling industry of third-party repair shops for BEVs—which you can attest to first hand. BEVs are not “disposable” like you claim—as evidenced, again, by your own experience of repairing BEVs.
You’ve suggested, in other threads, that BEVs are not designed for repair; every professional and shade-tree mechanic I’ve ever known (myself included) has used that same complaint (“engineers are idiots; they don’t think about repairs”) against ICE vehicles for decades yet the ICE repair industry is still massive and, importantly, constantly evolving—new tools, new aftermarket parts that are better/more reliable than OE, the sharing of knowledge so others can learn how to be safe, etc. This is how industries grow. The notion that all the support infrastructure must be in place before a product can be considered useful or reliable is absurd; we live in a world that iterates and evolves quickly.
Is the Fiat “totaled” or will you be able to repair it? What about the Bolt?
You’ve complained that working on the Fiat is difficult and poorly documented; have you seen what it takes to replace the oil-pan gasket on modern trucks? You have to remove the entire cab! I know well the frustration of working on products that have poor service documentation or seem to be engineered only for production with no consideration for service but that doesn’t mean a product has no viability or is unreliable; in fact, the opposite often seems to be the case—difficult to repair products seem to have better longevity and are therefore more likely to be viable.
I’m willing to admit I might be wrong about BEVs while it feels like you’ve already decided they’re utterly useless; why take such a hard-line stance?
they dont. LFP has at least twice the cycle life of NMC for starters..
Better EVs just go 10y+ without almost any maintenance.
I am not a mechanic. I’m an EE. My company does work for a lot of mfgs.