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Comment by ant6n | Hacker News Reader

The state railways have large exited night trains as a form of transport, due to economics, although it’s a much more sustainable form of transportation compared to aviation.

Since Europe has a liberalized market in the rail sector, some startups are trying to fill the gap.

European sleeper operates a night train on the route Brussel-Amsterdam-Berlin-Prague, using old rented rolling stock.

I’m involved with Luna Rail (in Berlin), which is trying a more technical approach around rolling stock design to improve unit economics to make Night trains profitable.

There’s also a startup in the US, dreamstar, whose primary effort appears to be about getting track rights for now (something that’s not such a big concern in Europe - here the barrier is rolling stock).

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I'm sure you know of this, but just sharing the map for others: https://projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Europe%20nigh...

The situation is a lot better today than 10 years ago or so, largely thanks to ÖBB Nightjet. But yep, it's not only state railway companies anymore, as can be seen on the map

I've taken a few night trains. They were mostly a fun experience, but they weren't in general especially time or cost efficient (though you have to factor in saving a night of hotel).

It also helps if you're generally going city center to city center and aren't lugging large suitcases around. (Which you might think would be a better fit for trains but really aren't for the most part.)

I've been wondering how long it would take for a startup to figure out how to build train cars for cheaper than the incumbents. I know it's hard, but not as hard as building airplanes... As long as the authorities agree to certify them, and I could see a lot of corruption there.

The unit economics for Night trains are in the operation. U want your cars to minimize operating cost, which may actually make the asset costs more expensive (at least at first).

Curious about the issues you're having with rolling stock. Given Germany's industrial prowess, I would've thought that that wouldn't be an issue to manufacture, either for domestic use or export.

For startups, building up the financing for buying rolling stock is very difficult. There’s currently very little available on the rental market.

It’s difficult to just do a startup on general in this space (it’s sustainable mobility, but involves hardware, an old industry, old tech).

The state railways can afford rolling stock, but it’s extensive and takes a long time. They are not too innovative either, so may not solve the economics issues with new approaches, because they are too conservative.

Ah, I had interpreted your statements as an issue of manufacture and availability, not financing.

As to finance, it does suck that we throw billions at economically, socially, and/or globally destructive, unprofitable startups and yet something that is a net good for society and environment can't get that funding. I guess that's where government steps in or private/public partnerships.

Good luck though!

>> a much more sustainable form of transportation compared to aviation.

Night trains are not like normal trains. They carry far fewer passengers per car. That doesn't make them as bad as flying on pure CO2 emissions, but night trains are not as efficient as "trains" generally. They are more comparable to luxury busses. But ... if the other option is an electric car, or even an electric aircraft, then even an electric night trains will likely no longer win on CO2 emissions.

> night trains will likely no longer win on CO2 emissions.

The comparison is more complicated though isn’t it? It isn’t a comparison with a plane, it’s a variable comparison with a plane, a taxi, and a hotel etc.

Seating rail cars have 70-90 seats, whereas couchettes have 40-66 beds, but at lower emissions (lower speed->less drag) and higher occupancy (in Germany, occupancy is around 50% for day trains). It’s pretty much a wash. If you mean luxury sleepers, they’re worse sure. None of the startups are really targeting those luxury/low density levels, because of the overall poor impact.

Flying has around 10x the co2eq emissions of trains (300g/km, including infrastructure, occupancy). Cars are still pretty bad, but also don’t compete well for 1000km trips in Europe. It’s basically only aviation at those distances.

Electric airplanes that can do 1000km trips don’t exist. They may exist one day in significant quantities… but perhaps only after we’ve used up all our carbon budget on the path to a 2-3C increase.

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