I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled
linkedin.com
linkedin.com
They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to register for my final quarter and have been de facto expelled at the end of this quarter.
Unless, that is, I agree to work on a comparable solution for the university focused on solving the underlying problem I was building HuskySwap for. They would presumably own the IP and were clear that I wouldn’t be compensated. But it was implied that they would then remove the hold, allowing me to graduate.
I really love UW and have had a wonderful time here. But this is so demoralizing.
Update #2:
I appreciate you guys for all of your advice.
This platform was never intended to be monetized, and I am not planning to get a lawyer involved as I have faith that UW leadership will make it right in the end.
I'm not planning to pursue this project at this point. If they came up to me at first with the offer to work with them it might be different, but the way they handled it makes me just want to walk away.
All evidence so far indicates they will not make it right, but instead they may make it even worse. Your faith is wildly misplaced. Seriously, talk to a lawyer.
Keep in mind, just because you seek advice from a lawyer doesn't mean you need to take legal action against the school. Talking to a lawyer is not an escalation; the school doesn't even need to know you consulted one. A lawyer will advise whether you should take legal action and any more amicable alternatives available before they do anything on your behalf.
I remember literally the only way to get a spot reserved in some /mandatory/ courses was to find an upper classman with prioritized registration dates and a free schedule to hold the class for you. In you're in a frat, great. If you're a bit of an introvert that lives off campus, you're shit out of luck.
I imagine UW is fully aware of this, I cant believe that it's still so much an issue that they felt the jeed to expell you for even having the gall to demo an idea. Absolutely appalling
It's hard to judge from the outside as you haven't shared the actual writing from UW.
I would probably cut this from the end of the LinkedIn post, this makes you look like you're possibly trying to blow this out of proportion for attention:
> I'm scheduled to graduate in a few months and am eager to move on to projects that don't need to be cleared with the UW Registrar. If you know of anyone looking for a full-time software engineer with a knack for getting the attention of senior leadership, please send them my way! I can start full-time in June
Your LinkedIn profile states you graduated high school mid 2023 and started at UW mid-late 2023. How can you graduate in a few months already? That would mean you'd just take 2 years instead of the normal 4?
You should at least talk to a guidance counselor if you are close to graduating. They have a lot of incentive to get you graduated, and would probably just register you for your courses manually (because...you weren't officially expelled so there has to be a way). Anyways, the counselor will have options for you, and won't be constrained by whoever is running the registration site (and aren't going to be their allies either). If that doesn't work, go to UW administration, they are going to be less interested in allying with the tech department the higher up you go (unless this came from them, and not the tech department?).
Alternatively, if you can put your work with the university on your CV, it isn't a clear loss for you. You should also consider getting a lawyer involved, but it might be better just to get what you can and graduate.
An officious word for lawyer is counsel, because that’s what they’re for: they offer legal counsel. You don’t technically “talk” to a lawyer , instead you ask them questions. They answer. That’s why client-attorney privilege exists at all: so you can feel free to seek counsel, ie ask questions, without fear of those questions ever being held against you.
You’re right not to talk to a lawyer. Instead, you should ask them questions. Like “what’s the worst that can happen?” and “what are my options if it does?” and “ what documents / evidence would I need to defend myself?” and “what would you advise me not to do?”.
As a silly rule of thumb: every message to a lawyer should have at least one question mark in it. That is the role of legal counsel in our society. Use that privilege. Seek counsel.
Then, if you don’t want to do anything with their advice, that’s ok.
From the linked page: "As I began college, I noticed that the poor technical design of the registration system made it incredibly difficult to get the set of classes I wanted. I developed automated registration software that would detect open slots in the full courses, and notify me via text message. While my friends were spending hours every day refreshing course schedules hoping to get into a full class, I was just waiting for a text message. And I always got into the classes, because a human refreshing a browser can't beat my software that was checking thousands of times per hour. Automation wins again."
I thought I had read somewhere that he turned it into a product while he was in college, but that wasn't mentioned there.
[0] https://www.hashicorp.com [1] https://mitchellh.com/writing/automation-obsessed
WTF!
That can’t be legal
Can you clarify how you got the Swagger files? Were they publicly available?
Could you share the exact verbiage they used to seemingly extort labor and intellectual property from you?
Does the university have some previously existing (and communicated/documented) policy regarding swapping or trading seats?
Saying you need todo it for free is bonkers. Students who work in the cafeteria get paid…
And the gap between “a greenfield project” versus rebuilding the app in their infrastructure is so huge… This type of app would take 6 months to build minimum. So insane.
If you only have a few months left, you will barely get out of the initial project scoping meetings talking to all of the various departments (legal, it, hr, etc etc)
It's clear the ones running things do not care about their students. They care only about their bottom line and appearances. Don't let one or two nice administrators fool you. Get a lawyer.
I would never ever trust those hypocritical bureaucrats in universities. They have power over your degree and your life, but you have nothing. They are businessmen and politicians (some of which actually had/will have a political life before/after the high education gig), not educators.
You high school teachers and university professors are real humans. Administrators are not.
> I was instructed to take down my demo site (and its handful of fake demo classes) or else they would begin the process that would culminate with my expulsion.
And now here, you say this:
> They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to register for my final quarter and have been de facto expelled at the end of this quarter.
> Unless, that is, I agree to work on a comparable solution for the university focused on solving the underlying problem I was building HuskySwap for. They would presumably own the IP and were clear that I wouldn’t be compensated. But it was implied that they would then remove the hold, allowing me to graduate.
I don't think there's any reason to have faith that their leadership will make things right. It sounds like they've already moved the goalposts once, and there's no reason to trust that they wouldn't do it again later. They no longer deserve the presumption of good faith.
As an alternative to what the options here seem to be saying, I can't help but wonder if some other university might be more willing to work with you without having to go through all of the blackmail. If this is something that's actually valuable to UW, it probably would be valuable to others as well, and without the threat of expulsion, you might be able to get better terms from them; maybe someone here with a connection to a more open-minded university could help get the door open to making a more fair deal? If finishing your degree is important to you, and you still don't have any desire to make a business out of this, maybe some form of scholarship in return for making a system for them for something like this? Alternately, if you do end up wanting to own the IP and monetize it in some way, you could try to rework the idea to be a service you sell to universities rather than offer for free to students. Even if you don't want to sell it, you could always offer it to universities for free with some terms that require attribution to you (and maybe also stipulate that no one is allowed to share the code with UW, since you deserve some compensation from them even if you don't want it from anyone else).
Without a lawyer they have no reason to do anything. You paid a lot to graduate, it is nothing short of foolish to squander that investment by forgoing legal representation while they try to extort you.
Don’t have any more unrecorded conversations with them. They are playing hardball and you are pretending that everything is a-ok, when it clearly isn’t.
What about their actions so far suggests that?
This is extortion.
The last thing in the world you want at this point is to be getting into any big fights obviously, but wow did they just give you about 3 legs to stand on.
Do not give any extra details about the project, do not comment on how it was made and what it used etc.
> I feel terrible writing this. But here we are. Today UW issued an official statement that was obviously targeting me and sent it to the media. In their statement they point to the "Tampering & Abuse" policies outlined on the registrar's website. This is presumably to draw attention to this emphasized text: "Additionally, the creation of any service that enables any of the above behaviors is strictly forbidden and constitutes a violation of this policy." But this afternoon a university employee reached out to let me know that this text was literally added today. You can confirm for yourself by looking at the previous version (December 8 until today) at https://lnkd.in/ge4XCh8Z. Some people have been understandably skeptical about my story. This development doesn't provide evidence to refute their claims, but this should give you some context on how they're treating me. I just want them to remove my registration hold so I can graduate after next quarter and move on with my life. But I am definitely not meeting with the administration for a disciplinary struggle session when I am more confident than ever that I haven't violated any rules.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jdkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
Who? As in not "they" or "the university", but who within the university? Can you tell where the directive is coming from?
If this comes from, say, the Provost's Office then this probably can't be handled internally. (The position of Provost is the #2 position at a university, and the provost usually runs the show while the President or Chancellor goes schmoozing with donors.)
But if it's coming from the Registrar's Office, then the Registrar doesn't have that much power internally, and you might be able to fight this decision within the university. What they did is not only brazenly immoral, it is also a tremendous legal liability for UW, and it should and might be a firing offense for whoever is responsible. And quite frankly no matter what happens I would seriously consider hiring an attorney (you might find one who will work on contingency).
You might speak with any professors in the department you have a good relationship with; I would be very surprised if they were sympathetic to this decision.
You might also talk with the university ombudsman, Dean of Students, etc. -- although I would be a little bit cautious and polite here. Just calmly describe the situation and ask what you should do in this situation. Hopefully (but this is very far from certain), they will calmly offer to intervene on your behalf, and then they will go ballistic behind closed doors and absolutely rake the Registrar over the coals. In any case, be poker faced, don't fully trust them, and avoid committing to a particular course of action if you don't have to.
Finally, here's an amusing hack. Salaries at UW are public record. If you want to find out how important any individual person is in the hierarchy, look up how much money they make. It's a fairly accurate barometer.
https://fiscal.wa.gov/Staffing/Salaries
Universities are not monoliths, and the relationships between different power centers are usually mistrustful at best.
Best of luck to you.
You may wish to consider deleting this comment. You can always repost it later after you lawyer up.
Hopefully, the matter will be cleared up quickly and satisfactorily, for all parties.
> I am not planning to get a lawyer involved as I have faith that [university] leadership will make it right in the end.
Ironically, the fact that you went public on what could be a delicate internal matter might've escalated things, more than consulting a lawyer would.
At a university, if there's at least one specific administrator or full professor who you both trust, and think has clout to resolve the matter satisfactorily, then trusting the university to make things right might be reasonable.
Or, if your university is a rare one that has unusually good conventions of honorable behavior, which you know are practiced by most (including administrators, faculty, staff, and students), and there are effective checks and balances for when that fails, then maybe you're also OK.
But, in most universities, when an official is talking about possibly ruining your career/life, then either you fudged up really-really badly (so, consult a lawyer), or you're in danger of learning just how bad a largely unaccountable institution of largely unaccountable individuals can get (so, consult a lawyer).
Also, if an official you're talking with ever asks if you've filed a lawsuit, and says they have to stop talking with you if you do, don't say that you want to work collegially with the university to resolve the situation internally. A shitty person hearing that will totally take advantage of naive you, to neutralize the risk from you. Run, don't walk, to consult a lawyer.
So, they
- gave you an ultimatum for a project you personally worked on
- you complied
- they soft-expelled you anyway
- they coerced you under this expulsion to do free labor to improve their own site.
- heck, you are paying 10's of thousands to them to attend school. So you are paying them for the privilege to work on their site so you can be re-instated into school to out you into debt.
I've worked in the game industry for some 9 years now. Your talent is being exploited. I'm not going to tell you to sue, but you should definitely cut all ties immediately and find another school ID this is how they are treating their budding talent. They clearly have no respect for you. This happens all the time in my industry full of passionate talent. You gotta look out for yourself first before you dedicate yourself to others.
EDIT: Ahh, I see you're almost graduating. In that case just do what you can to get back in and get far away. But do NOT provide any free labor for them. I don't know the exact ideas but you may at least want a Lawyer to send a warning shot. This feels like coercion, but I can't say for sure.
Not a lawyer, but this is outrageous and feels like a breach of the university-student contract. Point to the other students that must perform surprise labor for the university as a precondition for course registration. This is like paying your debt to the early 1900s company store. Absolutely lawyer up.
You say: "They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to register for my final quarter and have been de facto expelled at the end of this quarter."
Is it possible that some tiresome UW admin person has put your account on hold while this is being sorted out, but they haven't connected the dots that you now won't be able to register? Is the "de facto expulsion" an unintended consequence rather than a deliberate punishment?
And then perhaps this person is trying to say, hey, there's a way we could keep your project going if it's an official project, but we don't have budget for it. Let's discuss if that would work for you. And perhaps this was intended to be a suggestion for a positive outcome, rather than an IP-grabbing maneuver.
And when you say, "it was implied that they would then remove the hold, allowing me to graduate." I totally get that it feels that way, but is it possible that such an aggressive implication wasn't intended?
This might be wishful thinking on my part. It just seems so hard to believe that anything you've done comes remotely close to actual expulsion, and this idea that you'd be forced to work to graduate seems like a total head-scratcher that wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny. I'm hoping that this is just a poorly-handled, poorly-worded communication from this department.
It's so egregious. If you do a gofundme for legal support where would you post it? So we can follow you there.
I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further.
The easiest path forward is to do what it takes to graduate, it sounds like you are one quarter away. Smile, play nice, help out where you can. Get everything in writing.
Definitely TALK to a lawyer and have that in your back pocket. It is likely there is some sort of legal aid through the law school and you can. However, only use this as a last resort. It would be no problem for a university to drag something like this out for months or years and you will be left without a degree.
Please do not plan based on anyone's goodwill only, especially in this one you have such a high stake. I'd at least consult a lawyer at this point, even if it means you don't take any legal action.
While I did my Bachelor's in CS, I was employed by a university (not the one I attended, but one that the project I worked on moved to after the Prof in charge switched universities) as a "student worker" type deal. My job was essentially a Jr. SWE.
A friend of mine also worked on that project, but he was ahead a bit further in his studies, so he already had a BSc degree, while I hadn't. Universities being universities, this meant that his hourly pay was a tiny smidge more than mine (think 50 cents/hour or something like that). Neither of us was paid very well, we both came out to about 10-12 €/hour.
After 6 months my contract was up for renewal. Along with the renewal, they included a modest pay raise to my friend's level. I naively thought that that meant they appreciated my work or something like that. All went well until the _next_ renewal was up.
The HR person responsible for student workers noticed that my "raise" had been in error because they assumed I had gotten my degree as well. None of their paperwork that I signed originally mentioned that. As "proof" that I "should have known" that the raise was in error, they sent along a scanned copy of a copy of a copy of an internal "wage schedule" that I somehow should've been aware of.
Their solution was to hand me a "new" backdated contract with lower hourly wages and told me to sign that to "just quickly fix this error" and told me to just pay back what I had "erroneously" received (signed contract stating the contrary nonwithstanding).
I politely declined because that's not how I think employment works. As a response they said "ah well, don't worry, we'll just take it out of your next pay check", which they did (without me signing anything).
At that point I called my mom and told her the full story. She immediately went "Alright, how do you want to play this? Should we talk to them or do you want to pull out the big guns?". I was sufficiently pissed off that I told her I want the big guns, she told me the info for my families' "lawsuit insurance" (The German term is "Rechtsschutzversicherung", basically cheap-ish insurance to help you pay for a lawyer in cases like this) and called them after we talked.
I called up a lawyer in town that specialized in employment law, had an appointment with him to tell him the story, he went "I can see roughly 4 or 5 reasons that they can't take that money from you, let me write a letter to them and we'll see how it goes".
The end result was that the university in my next paycheck included the amount they had initially reduced my previous check by, my higher-wage contract was renewed, and we never spoke of any of that again. I didn't get an apology or anything from the HR admin who had clearly messed up my contract and was probably trying to cover her ass, but that's fine with me.
Point being: talk to a lawyer, even just to get some advice or to have them write out a nice letter as to why what they're doing is not OK.
They're using bureaucracy to save face for themselves. Once this is out of view, they're going to forget about it.
That's incredibly foolish. UW has treated you very poorly at this point, and they have all the leverage and power here. You need to protect yourself legally. You've done nothing wrong (AFAICT), and yet you've been threatened with expulsion, and now they are attempting to extort you: "provide us with uncompensated labor or we won't let you graduate".
You might even have a criminal complaint around that last bit. Assuming good faith by the university (an entity that has already shown plenty of bad faith) is naive, to say the least.
Holy shit. Do you have this in writing? If you do, transfer the records to several places that YOU control... don't rely on University-controlled systems to keep this information safe.
If they relayed this to you verbally, and you are in a one-party-consent state, did you record the conversation?
If your report is reasonably accurate, they are absolutely NOT acting in good faith and absolutely WILL NOT act in good faith. If you have records of their statements, you should take those records to a lawyer and ask for advice.
As you will soon learn, having faith in any of these big institutions will lead to disappointment. Having faith in people you know personally is one thing, but this is a group of people you don't know who are missing incentives to do right by you. The best thing you can do is what you've already done, which is showing people the discrepancy from what they say and how they act. This will save others with similar misconceptions about UW being a reasonable organization from attending.
Is the UW CS Bachelor just 2 years? Your LinkedIn profile states that you started there mid-2023, so you've been there for just 1.5y. What am I missing?
Please seek legal advice and do not take anything they say at face value. They're engaging in bad faith and preying on your fears and ignorance.
Just remember that your didn't do anything wrong, and I hope that you don't get discouraged from your future pursuits, I'm almost certain that there are employers out there who will love this and offer you a great start your career.
They've already demonstrated that they won't, so faith is misplaced
Sue the ever living hell out of them. They are forcing you to work for them unpaid. Call multiple labor boards and drag them into UW immediately.
In addition to raising hell on the public front. I would be consulting with attorneys to discuss what can be done in court to compel the UW to do the right thing.
Don’t be naive and think uni leadership will “make it right in the end”.
If this is a one-party state, record those calls!
Best thing to do is to lure them into overestepping themselves in writing, and the extortionate demand that you work for free is heading in that direction.
I sort of understand the part they wanted you to shutdown the website. Maybe its a copyright issue, even though the website only showed dummy courses.
I don't understand why they'd not let you sign up for classes to graduate, it seems like you were operating in good faith, and a University would lean towards the student. It doesn't seem like there was any indication of monetization here.
I'm definitely flabbergasted by their stance on asking you to build the same feature as an extortion mechanism.
I've lived in WA for ~9 years, and held UW in high regard as I often interact with graduates at my day job. But, this leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Hope the University admin that is involved in these series of decisions, receive health as more leadership gets involved with this going viral.
Assuming you mean the project, not your degree, that sounds reasonable but from your description it also sounds like they aren't willing to let you do that. Hence the advice to at least talk to a lawyer.
Hopefully the Streisand Effect will force them to do the right thing.
I upvoted your LinkedIn post.
> Unless, that is, I agree to work on a comparable solution for the university focused on solving the underlying problem I was building HuskySwap for. They would presumably own the IP and were clear that I wouldn’t be compensated. But it was implied that they would then remove the hold, allowing me to graduate.
This is so outrageous that I have trouble believing it. If it's true, you need to immediately take this to the media.
They are actively trying to fuck you over- stop hoping and having faith that it will somehow magically work out. Your degree is at stake. You need to escalate, and that starts with talking with a lawyer.
Right now, you are being the worst kind of naive.
don't be daft. they are already blackmailing you for free labour.
Now it sounds like you’ve got some sociopaths on the line. I would gather information and fish them to get very specific about their request and threat, then kindly turn it around on them. Be prepared to go above their heads all the way to the board if necessary.
Things like tenant rights, criminal cases, immigration, consumer, employment, wills, health care directives, power of attorney, name change, etc.
You should make use of them. Especially if your educational career is being impacted “a hold” (whatever that means). If it was coursework project then your professor also should have some sway if he or she has tenure and any integrity
Good luck
Yikes, they're going to walk all over you.
My wife works at a major public university and fights with antiquated software and business systems all day long. The amount of IT system bloat and 'village-idiot dumb' processes for managing course offerings, course catalogs, class schedules, etc. is pretty bad at a lot of universities.
your creativity is correct.
enjoy your spotlight.
Once you have your degree, you can go from there, hire a lawyer, sue for uncompensated labor (something about minimum wage laws, I think, requires they pay you), and so on. Maybe even some emotional distress.
But hey, IANAL and ya gotta do what you think is right.
Never do this.
You are on the right, they are on the wrong. This makes sound like you are doing something wrong.
Standing your ground on what you believe is right - technically, legally, ethically, ideology - would be what make you very successful in the long term.
Accept that you have lost, take the offer.
It's unlikely that you will have to do more than attend a few meetings and write some emails, possibly provide some code samples. The goal is likely not a complete working solution but to punish you for unwittingly countering someone's reason for needing a large team (and therefor you are threatening their pay).
Quite possible the desired solution here might be you agreeing to say that a proper solution can't work safely with the university systems for some made up reason.
So at least back when I went there, basically any CS student could have told you that this website was a horrible idea that is sure to get you in trouble.
I understand that the registration system is probably old and tied up in tons of just as old management software, but if the university really cared the solutions should be there.
With pre-registration you can also get an idea of demand in advance, instead of having to post-hoc schedule additional classes (or concert tour dates, or airline flights, or PS5 units, or… etc.)
Non-transferability means the lottery is continuous. As soon as anyone relinquishes their class, the lottery will have to run again to reallocate. You could do this daily.
This is a technical solution that works but it overlooks the cultural side of a resource allocator wanting their resource to generate hype and demand, build up to the Big Event, and then sell out in “record time”. I can understand that a big part of University marketing is to try to seem as popular and oversubscribed as possible, even if I don’t agree with it.
Finally of course, the public RNG bit feels like the most interesting. A giant continuous dice tumbler in the middle of UW’s Red Square? The tumbler feels easy, but how would you make a physical ledger to record the dice rolls automatically?
My alma mater let people register in descending order of number of completed credits with a C or better (e.g. 2.0), and then GPA, in waves. Same with dorm sign ups which were required for everyone but seniors. It worked out great and professors always had enough slack to let special cases in if they felt compelled to.
Making it random seems like a bad idea to me. It's "fair" only insofar as randomness is fair. For high-demand classes isn't it more "fair" that people who will graduate sooner and/or have done better in their classes thus far should have the first opportunity to get those classes?
When someone drops a class, the opening becomes available immediately, so you coordinate a time well after the registration rush has died down for one person to click "drop" and the other to refresh the page and click "register". At least that's how it worked when I did it 20 years ago. It was relatively common in the Greek system not to "trade" a class for a class but rather a class for a few beers or the like: prior to registration, if you were an underclassman who really needed to get into a class next quarter that you knew filled up quickly, you'd find an upperclassman (who get access to the system earlier) who was eligible for the class you needed and wasn't full on credits to grab a slot, then a couple days before classes started, you'd have them drop and then grab it for yourself.
At that time (early 2000s), polling bots weren't common, but there were rumors, so people doing this got more careful and actually sat next to each other with their laptops to coordinate the drop and add instead of just picking a time or date.
Allowing infinitely large waitlists for a given class - which even in the most convoluted legacy system imaginable is not that big of a challenge - and trading disappears overnight.
It's not a problem for the university directly, and fixing it would cost money, so there's no incentive to do it. Gotta make sure there's enough money to keep paying the president $76,000 every month, after all.
So you want to study, say, engineering.
First you have to apply and get admitted to the university, and many people aren't admitted. The acceptance rate I can find for UW is 54% in-state, 46% out of state.
Then the university tells you that if you want to study engineering, you have to study a lot of other non-engineering things it feels like you should study. All of which are pretty costly and time consuming.
You might have to take courses in things you already know, because there are few courses you can test out of and the universities limit how many credits it can bring over.
Then on top of this, the universities don't provide anywhere near enough adequate quality classes for students, which is the whole reason why there's this level of demand in the first place.
Not only do they not provide enough, they know they don't provide enough, so their response is since it's "really competitive" they need to be "really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else." It's not about making sure students needs are being met, even for classes that the university is forcing on them. It's about restricting students, so that they suffer a roughly equal amount from the university's failures.
The attitude of the universities seems to be that since they're the only game in town, students have to suffer through all of this. Imagine a system where students could take classes from anywhere they want, and then could get a degree just by passing assessments at the university. I imagine the number of people paying huge amounts of money for inadequate classes would plummet.
We even have an alumni-run site that scrapes the registration platform's API for the details of every course to provide a better UI interface.
It even has a tool to generate an AutoHotkey script so students can insta-register for all their classes seconds after registration opens up for them (it's usually a mad rush at midnight when course registration opens for freshman/sophomores as they all compete for the remaining course slots left after seniors and juniors have already registered).
Seems inane an institution would crack down on it.
We even have another alumni-run site that does nothing but FOIA the average GPA of all courses from every professor; While I can't imagine the university is thrilled about it, as it's completely legal they haven't tried to pressure the creators to shut it down afaik.
Or you know, they could have just improved their registration system so this wouldn't be an issue... But hey, I'm sure UW raises their tuition every year for good reasons and the money is well spent.
Which is the policy I followed when I found that they had stored one of their LDAP admin passwords in a world readable file on the CS servers.
[1] https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-crime-educati...
An investigation by the Missouri State Patrol and a MO county later determined that the executive branch screwed up and leaked the SSNs and that the reporter committed no crime.
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2022/02/report-missouri-governor...
Were I personally impacted, I would just submit information to the media as an anonymous whistleblower to get it fixed.
Professors? The problem is tenure.
Those professors aren't great teachers, and I think we shouldn't blame them for it. Instead we should blame the system that forces them to do something they aren't good at.
> I have seen all the emails now and it's as bad as described. I thought there might be some hyperbole but the "University Registrar and Chief Officer of Enrollment Information Services" is clearly saying "work with us to build this for free or you're not graduating". They even specify that he needs to set up the meeting "well before registration opens on February 13th for spring quarter 2025" because they're not going to let him continue otherwise.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/edkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
Its weird that he hasn't posted anything given the retaliation he is receiving, hence why its hard to take completely seriously.
This makes me skeptical of any follow-on claims or discussion.
The dad's testimony doesn't make it less likely to be true, but it's not high quality evidence in favor.
Edit: I'm fine with downvotes, but do everyone a favor and explain why you disagree. It's a bit disheartening that every comment that doesn't go full on pitchfork gets squashed with no justification other than 'failure to light a torch'. We can be better than that.
Certainly we should look at someone else's (especially a relative's) corroboration of the story with some skepticism; ideally we could see the emails themselves.
But really, OP should contact a lawyer ASAP.
Of course the father is “heavily invested” in his son. That comes from decades of raising him, diapers, dinners, driving and him around, and probably also sharing 50% of his genes.
This comment is so out of touch with human family norms and morals that I do think it detracts from the overall discussion.
Totally fine to say "uh guys, it's the kid's dad, not exactly an unbiased party", but to suggest that a father using his resources to raise his son is an indication of a lack of integrity shows that you have a poor or distorted grasp on how the human world works (and should work).
Unrealistic request. 95% of the point of downvoting is to give people the option to do their bit to bury things that they can't logically refute or easily debunk or whatever. The other 5% is spam/troll mitigation.
> “The Student Web Service gives your application access to information in the Student database such as course data, registration data, section data, person data, and term data (general academic data).”
It doesn't make any sense. Was there something left out of the story? Do they offer this web service as a honeypot to find and expel ambitious software developers?
Meanwhile, most university "enterprise" software is a festering pile of shit.
I'm very surprised by the extortion attempt, but sadly a massive overreaction doesn't much surprise me.
No bureaucrat is going to say "yes" because the consequences of something going wrong costs them their job while the benefits of things going right are zero.
(For example, a DDoS. The number of times I have accidentally fired a DDoS at an API endpoint is non-trivial. Or it could get so popular that it's a DDoS. etc.)
The kind of person who doesn't leave that role tends to be either someone who enjoys accumulating or wielding power, or would have trouble in roles outside of an institution like that.
Now imagine a person who has almost no power just made a public spectacle about something in your camp that you've been not doing for years even though it's been a well known problem because nobody could make you do anything about it.
You're probably going to go into overdrive and try to kill this story, even if it's not because you'll be directly punished in any way from it (because that's very uncommon in academia), but because this person DARED to challenge you.
...at least, that's my perception from years of time around toxic parts of academia (and some less toxic parts, but.)
I'm not saying the story is true, I don't have enough data to comment, but I have absolutely seen enough academics go off the handle from 0 to 11 to buy this as plausible.
I think you're doing the right thing by publicizing this far and wide. Stay calm, cool, and stick to the facts as tightly as possible. When this gets picked up across social media and news media it will start to become a problem for other people on the administrative side of the university who are also territorial (about PR/image) and will take it as their job to fix it.
So be loud, but polite.
> So be loud, but polite.
Fully agree. In academia problems don't get fixed until it's more annoying to not fix it. The more attention this gets the more likely a petty bureaucrat above the one responsible for this will realize their day just significantly more annoying and will likely squash it quickly and quietly.
Not so polite take: most of them could be replaced by a 20 line shell script.
It shouldn't be difficult to determine why education costs are so inflated, nor should it be difficult to see the obvious solution here.
FERPA was probably a big factor in UW’s initial response to ask that the site be taken down. Institutions are all about CYA now.
The bit about blackmail seems a bit far fetched. I’d like to see the correspondence between UW and this individual. The entire story is certainly plausible but as other have pointed out, there are a number of inconsistencies.
Both times we came under scrutiny for the possibility that we might be handling student data in ways that the university couldn't control, and mostly, that we might be taking passwords on behalf of users.
The first was just a mockup, and while the second initially had full university auth against their open LDAP server, we quickly removed that in favour of our own auth, because it was very apparent that the password input being on our domain was a dealbreaker for the university.
By doing this, and by communicating carefully about what we were doing and what we were not doing, where the boundaries were, and how we handled data, we managed to win them around to some productive discussions. Most of the people we spoke to on university staff who were involved in this were not at the technical level to be able to understand, for example, having an unsecured LDAP server that we could auth against, and were only interested in the policy of whether we were allowed to do it.
It's a common failure mode of software engineers to assume that because something is not technically disallowed, even though it could be, that it must therefore be allowed. This is not true.
What's not clear with this project is whether the university have a fundamental disagreement with the idea of a student project providing services, or if someone has panicked that a non-approved system might be receiving passwords from students. The former is obviously ridiculous, universities should be open to this sort of innovation, especially from their students. But the latter is understandable and a fairly reasonable response, but one that does need careful handling by the student to navigate well.
> Additionally, the creation of any service that enables any of the above behaviors is strictly forbidden and constitutes a violation of this policy.
Worth noting that the administrative code is probably more important, here's some relevant sections:
WAC Aiding, assisting, and attempting: https://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=478-121-113
WAC Computer abuses: https://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=478-121-117
Registrar before: https://web.archive.org/web/20241208123609/https://registrar...
Registrar after: https://web.archive.org/web/20250109203004/https://registrar...
FYI public university education is fully government-funded in Poland (i.e. it is free for students).
1 - https://usosweb.mimuw.edu.pl/kontroler.php?_action=news%2Fde...
I'm happy my uni in Poland didn't use it :P
Am I being overly skeptical here?
To be fair he follows up the first post saying that the university is holding his future registration hostage unless he builds them a similar website:https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jdkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
In fact if you go on GitHub, their project presentation lists a 6 people team: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/117dGuEK98-TwAPGUBijf.... He was on the backend team, but still mentions angular in the LinkedIn post.
Did the others not do anything? Or why is he not giving them credit in the LinkedIn post?
As well as the question of interfering with registration, he has also gone about this in a way that causes reputational damage (& UW have probably caused their own, but that's not necessarily relevant here), which I cant imagine they'll take that kindly either.
But I work in a public university in the EU, so my understanding of how these institutions probably operate is likely a little skewed.
I agree with you that it seems that there might be something missing from the story.
The standard response and advice of talking to a lawyer I think is still good and stands regardless of how full or truthful the OPs account of the situation is.
I don't personally think that most university staff in the US are out to get people in this way either, so either there is something about the story we are missing, or this is a really big deal and this particular university is out of control.
My experience in university in the US was never this dramatic and I didn't see actions like this taken (but I also never constructed a project of this nature that is directly related to the university beurocracy).
In other words, this is kind of weird in a US context too and I feel the same weirdness about it that you are probably feeling viewing from the EU.
Because it squared with just about how everyone expects universities to behave based on their own experience
I'm really baffled here because the code Kaim published is itself MIT licensed. The university could use it however they see fit after his version, and perhaps make a modified version which they then incorporate in to their system as the 'official' version.
Perhaps this code being public may expose potential flaws (logical, security, etc) which they don't want to have to deal with. Or might even be known flaws they don't want to expose.
Taking the OP at face value, someone saying "build us a version of this" doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility, but again... whatever was demoed is already MIT. Absolutely no reason the school itself couldn't build on that (inhouse or out-sourcing).
About a decade ago, some teammates and I built an internal request system for our Ops team to replace the MS Sharepoint crap we were using. We used Bottle, BootstrapJS and SQLite to get it up and going quickly, and under the radar. Our customer IT teams loved it, and managers from elsewhere in our department were even asking half-jokingly if we could support their teams, too.
Well, the IT team that was deploying ServiceNOW was none too happy that a "non-standard" application was running... our manager was a knight and kept them from making us tear it down. We pretended to play ball, we walked through SNOW process of getting a team-specific form to build out. And then we never used it; we kept directing our customers to the self-built tool.
The moral is, people like their fiefdoms. Bureaucrats often shun innovation because it has the chance to make them obsolete, or else they are simply the kind of people who don't like disruption.
You may also have invented a tool that would have obsoleted some multimillion dollar software acquisition or internal process, who knows.
The registration system is probably mostly still the original 90s code though, it’s very basic, totally custom.
UW CSE actually had its own tech support team, completely separate from UW IT, who also write internal software/manage the computing systems just for CSE. At least, that used to be the case.
Is the request system just a honeypot?
He was disciplined for blatantly trying to "hack" (in the YC sense, in UW's view) the registration process:
https://registrar.washington.edu/winter-2025-registration-ch...
"Know that trading, selling, or buying open spots is a breach of the Registration Tampering Abuse Policy. Consequences include referral to the Student Code of Conduct process, a Registrar’s Hold on your record, and potential diploma withholding for graduating students until the conduct process is complete."
https://registrar.washington.edu/registration/policies-proce...
"Registration Abuse The registration system is provided for the sole express purpose for students to register themselves into sections. Any use of the registration system other than for this purpose is considered abuse of the system. Such abuse includes, but is not limited to, buying or selling one’s seat in a class, holding seats for another student, or otherwise registering for a section that one has no intention of taking."
Disclaimer: I am making no claim about the ethical validity of this policy, and I don't know how well the policy is communicated to students. I am not commenting on the allegation that the University demanded free labor in exchange for not-expelling OP.
So while it sounds like his site would almost certainly wound up violating policy had it gone live _it never did so_. That's a pretty good reason for them to deny the API request (which seems like may have not been intended for the public anyway?) But it does not in any way seem to merit the threat of expulsion, or, even worse, the fact that (according to the student in an update), even though he immediately complied they still put a hold on his account anyways.
There is some nuance here for sure, but I do not see in any way that the universities response is proportional to what actually happened.
This bit is important.
At a glance, stubhub/ticketmaster/etc are pretty benign services that fulfil a pretty natural need for event tickets, but we've all seen the damage they can cause. There's a very real risk that OP's service could become a ticketmaster for UW classes, with all the perverse incentives that entails. Their reaction was probably excessive, but, from this perspective, understandable.
While well-intentioned, if this was commonly used it would mess registration up even more by making the "constrained" classes valuable and would be filled up quickly by people who wouldn't take them.
This is important, because it's the only explicit reference to "trading open spots" they've made.
The Registration Abuse policy covers access to the registration system for:
* buying or selling one’s seat in a class,
* holding seats for another student,
* or otherwise registering for a section that one has no intention of taking.
It's unclear if HuskySwap actually violated this policy, given that it never actually accessed the registration system and no students used it in conjunction with the registration system of the school.
In my old days we did the same, only by finding someone who want to swap manually
Is some OAuth2 authentication flow involved so that the university has registered the application and assigned a client id and return URI?
I think the university might have valid security concerns if the application somehow accesses student accounts without valid OAuth2 authorization flow (or equivalent).
Entering login credentials for university on a third-party site is probably forbidden by terms of service for the university site.
This was back in late 1990s, a group I was part of was getting a web site made on the school pages and I wanted to contribute. I ran my mouth about my dislike of the current site (I was a dumbass) and for some reason hosted the site on my local computer in my room which was accessible everywhere on the network. I wasn’t going to run it permanently, I just wanted to showcase it. That got me in some trouble, what I said got back too, I got my room connection disconnected because we weren’t supposed to run servers.
I apologized, obviously disabled the server, and eventually got reconnected.
I'm not sure this kind of misbehaviour reflects well on our brand.
Do you have a contact at the university I can talk to?
It is not hard to find the policy in question. I quote from the UW Registrar's website, their policy on tampering and abuse of the registration system, as cited in the subject of the email the student received:
> The registration system is provided for the sole express purpose for students to register themselves into sections. Any use of the registration system other than for this purpose is considered abuse of the system. Such abuse includes, but is not limited to, buying or selling one’s seat in a class, holding seats for another student, or otherwise registering for a section that one has no intention of taking. [0]
The student's project, though well-intentioned, is in clear violation of this policy. And it ought to be forbidden. There are plenty of ways this kind of a system could go wrong, including creating incentives to overregister or develop a registration black market, not to mention the technical liabilities of letting a bot talk to the database at bot-speed.
Now, as for follow-up conversations the student and the university have had, we have not seen these emails. We have only heard the student's own summary, which, given the high stakes and personally significant impact, may very well have been editorialized so that the university looks unreasonable and the student reasonable.
I, for one, cannot pass such quick and single-minded judgment as everyone else without seeing these emails.
[0] https://registrar.washington.edu/registration/policies-proce...
Note also that the student uses the LinkedIn post to advertise themselves to potential employers. This reduces credibility in my mind as it provides a reason why TFA might benefit from exaggeration/misrepresentation.
Nobody actually got punished, that I recall, for bringing a wireless router, but that was the nominal policy for a number of years before someone successfully got it into the annual tuition rollup so it stopped being necessary.
To my recollection from when I left the school years after that, though, there still wasn't campus wifi reliably accessible in the dorms. (Of course, half of them also didn't have reliable air conditioning in muggy humid summers and would blow breakers if you tried putting window units in, so...priorities.)
Also related: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295420/how-to-cope-...
Particularly in the age of AI, professors might have to go back to the practice of oral exams to have people demonstrate their understanding of an issue. The problem for universities is that means you have to have a lower student:teacher ratio.
There were tests you had to take in a special classroom full of Sun thin clients. You had to register yourself for some time slot(s) to go there. Sometimes you had to go there in like 2 days to meet a deadline but there were no slots available. So, someone made an app that would continuously scrape that page and notify you when a slot for your chosen time is available. Saved my ass a couple times.
Then Mark Zuckerberg built the Facebook by ignoring the data usage policy and scraping University data.
That's hardly readable, how could they act like that? I am sad to say it but you need the help of a lawyer and the most backup you'll get the better. The way they presented the case will never get solved in a happy manner. Do not let them get the code and the IP. Keep on!
Summary: Media attention gathers. UW issues a response that the site was in violation of the rules. But in fact rules were updated to make that site a violation just now. UW has acknowledged the site was taken down and a commitment made to not pursue any similar project. UW has lifted the hold. He can graduate.
> Thanks for your inquiry and for the opportunity to clarify this situation and our general approach to potential student conduct violations. Federal law does not allow UW to comment on matters regarding specific students, but I can provide some general information regarding UW policy and practice.
> Since you asked about swapping classes, I will tell you that students are reminded at the start of each academic year that trading, selling, or buying spots is a breach of the Registration Tampering Abuse Policy. Consequences may include referral to the Student Code of Conduct process, a Registrar's Hold on their record, and potential diploma withholding for graduating students until the conduct process is complete.
> On occasion, the Registrar will place a temporary registration hold in order to prompt a meeting with a student about a potential policy violation. This is standard practice.
> The Office of the University Registrar does not oversee Student Code of Conduct processes. Any corrective actions are only considered once a student conduct investigation has been completed and there has been a finding of wrongdoing. The Office of the University Registrar does not make threats regarding disciplinary action, other than to state what potential consequences could be for violating policy.
> Furthermore, the UW cannot and would not aim to effectively steal intellectual property from a student. There have been instances where a student's class project has turned into a potentially useful tool that UW-IT could help them develop into something that could serve other students. In any such case, appropriate partnership, ownership or credit for such a collaboration would be determined jointly with the student.
It contains a statement from the university as well:
> "On occasion, the Registrar will place a temporary registration hold in order to prompt a meeting with a student about a potential policy violation. This is standard practice." Victor Balta, UW Spokesperson
See also the dedicated submission of the news report: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42658766
> JD, this has just been brought to my attention. I was the CSE 403 TA in charge of this project last quarter, and while I don't have the full context of how the site developed after the quarter ended and the token request, hearing this I am genuinely baffled and do not understand in the slightest what the UW has found a violation in and the legality of their actions. From my heavy experience with the site, it was developed completely independently from the UW registration system and did not even include any UW-specific information. I don't understand how they could request you take it down. If you need help in advocating for yourself or testimony, please let me know. I can also get in contact with the professor from your quarter. From the information I currently have, this seems like an insane and incomprehensible violation of justice, and I'd fight to overturn it.
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7282891...
It looks to me like OP went berserk instead of resolving a misunderstanding peacefully. There could be multiple potential misunderstandings.
Someone seems to have overreacted on the UW side causing OP to overreact. And then HN potentially overreacted as well. Each overreaction compounds the previous one causing exponential overreaction.
UW has missed a great opportunity to show its current and future students and faculty that innovation is valued there. Their management decision will shutdown the minds of so many brilliant hackers, as we have already witnessed with the OP's decision to back down. I really hope the school can re-evaluate their decision and more importantly, the faculty should support the students, as they are together pursuing the goal of learning by doing. That's what higher education should offer, not conditioning people into rule makers and rule followers.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jdkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jdkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jdkaim_github-jdkaimhuskyswap...
> (…) Final update. The university has determined that I have satisfactorily complied with their request to take down the site, and I’ve said publicly that I do not plan to pursue anything like HuskySwap, so the hold has been removed without a meeting and I am back on track to graduate next quarter. I have thanked them for closing the matter. (…)
- Write stuff down! A paper trail is helpful both to prevent hearsay and keep your own timeline of events in check. Recency bias and the like are too common in stressful situations.
- Remember that you are one (1) human who needs food, sleep, and water.
- Reach out to the Ombud (at the HUB), professors, and other administrators you may know. Even within one department there can be mixups -- nevermind when university-wide policies (such as registration) come into play. Having someone who can help point you in the right direction will be invaluable.
- On that note, the HUB has free legal services; for better or worse, you aren't the first student to be in this position.
- I understand in another comment you said you're confident in UW Leadership's ability, but crucially, there is no such thing as a singular leadership. At a university that large, *even when everyone is working to help*, things can turn out bad. (It's like how a CEO can get fired and nothing changes at a company; the system has its own momentum.) It's hard to say what level of intervention needs to happen to resolve this -- School of CSE? Undergrad CS department? Registrar? UW President's Office? -- and each level will likely not know what the level above/around them can do.
- (And if you do need to escalate, it might be worth reaching out to the Registrar's office directly, over email. I say this because they work at a university-wide level, separate from any school or department, and may have a more-final say on what any individual branch can do/not do w.r.t. your enrollment.)
- Hanlon's razor, or more optimistically, "assume good intention". Always. Even when someone has stated not-good intention. This will help in a few ways: keeping your tone cordial, clearing up miscommunication. Maybe someone genuinely misunderstands what you built, or has pressure on their end to uphold some policy, however arcane. But most importantly, this will give yourself a way to not feel cornered, and distance your day-to-day/identity/etc. from this situation.- Remember that you are (likely still) one (1) human who needs food, sleep, and water. Those damn robots won't take over yet.
- Be careful what you post publicly! There is a reason the best PR teams stay silent. Less is more. Form a close group of people you trust to share information freely, and be very clear (to yourself) what your intention is with every public post. Is it to get validation/advice? Is it to put pressure on the university? The court of public opinion is a double edged sword! Not every interpretation needs to or will be true. (And employers, like the public, might interpret this situation positively or negatively. It's hard to say which way it will go!)
He's being allowed to continue graduating.
I am not from the USA and I don’t understand the context. What does “trade spots” mean? Does it mean that if I have registered to course A but not course B and my friend have registered to course B but not course A, we can swap our registered courses in the official registration system?
You will get plenty of job offers out of your post, and you don't need their useless degree anyway.
Universities are specialized in bullying from their admins (and often faculty) that have way too much time on their hands.
In my case, they accused me of copyright infringement and trying to destroy the co-op program. I made the case that while I was reproducing some data from the university's website, none of it had creative value and therefore wasn't protected by copyright. (I drew a parallel to an actual court case about reproducing phone book listings.)
I also reached out to some faculty that I was close to for some character references to show that I didn't have malicious intent.
Ultimately, I wasn't expelled or anything too bad. I was required to take a business ethics course, which I actually ended up enjoying.
Good luck!
I had completely forgotten that LinkedIn is fully owned by Microsoft.
Presumably by visiting `https://site.com/swagger-ui` or one of the other common doc endpoints. It's not that hard, and many places do not lock them down (even if they should).
1. The thing you are doing, could provide major value to the university and you did it for free.
2. The fact that you could simply just access that data is a major fuckup on their part that is inexcusable. In my eyes the perdon who walks through an open door is not at fault, the one who left it open is.
If they expell you for that, they do not deserve you.
The first quesrion you should figure out is on whose feet you stepped and why they are butthurt. Simultaneously try to get legal advice and the social/political support of your collegues. If you have a big number of students complaining to the higher ups why your cool service is gone and give them the feeling it is needed, you might even get a cool collab out of that.
Without knowing the details of how US academia operates I would try to maintain a positive angle (you want to help making the university life better), while in privage preparing for the worst.
I had a lecturer log in and leak the grades for my entire year, including my own, so his students could choose the best partners for final project.
Maybe if it were a high school student doing it, but making an app as a college student is not some impressive thing only prodigy students can do.
1. Mea Culpa
Talk to all of the faculty (dean of students, etc) and do your best to get people on your side. You need the petty person on the other end to reverse their decision, and having a lot of administration on your side, and more importantly, expressing (fake) remorse makes it easy for these jobsworth asshole(s) to fulfill their God complex. I'm actually convinced that this would have the highest probability of success. These Dolores Umbridge types adore getting to be the ones issuing mercy to the sinners.
Additionally, informing staff of the expulsion will help bring awareness of this abuse, and spread the word and prevent this from happening to other students.
While you perform your mea culpa groveling, record everything, which can be used as ammo later.
2. Agree to the (illegal) terms
Blackmailing you into slave labor is obviously illegal, but no terms have been laid out, so I don't see any harm in agreeing to them. Best case, they reverse the decision with the expectation that you'll do something (which you can then phone in or do a token exercise of), and worst case they outline terms which are the perfect ammo for negative publicity or a lawsuit.
3. Transfer schools/credits
I don't actually know what is involved in transferring schools or how expulsion factors in, but the reality is that you are effectively already expelled. Try and figure out the feasibility of saving what is salvageable at a school that is less insufferable.
4. Negative publicity
This story is easy to believe, sell, and consume- i.e. perfect ragebait. Start emailing every news outlet you can think of. Post on all social media. If it gets high enough, and probably not even that high, the weight of the negative publicity can easily outweigh the narcissists that started this, forcing a reversal.
5. Seek employment
If you have any employment cards in your deck, I'd consider playing them. If everything else fails, then at least you're financially secure and gain experience.
6. Lawyer
The combined weight of all of the above will assist a lawsuit, even prior to taking any legal steps. Note that all outcomes of a lawsuit that aren't "total win" are effectively a loss (of time, money, energy, and mental health), so I'd hesitate to take this course at all.