American workers' enthusiasm for their jobs falls to a 10-year low
axios.com
axios.com
I'd look for something else, but seeing this report, talking to friends and reading some comments in various threads on HN, it's clear the grass isn't greener anywhere else.
There are times I do technical work and times my entire job is putting out fires and making sure the wheels stay on the bus as we barrel full speed to a release. Making sure people have work. Making sure they know what it is, and the customer is on board. Tracking deadlines. Managing expectations. Making critical decisions about the architecture and the like.
Any developer can write code. This stuff requires a different set of executive functions, and engineers that can do both are generally promoted.
What you're describing is a manager, not an engineer. Do you have any managers in your company? What is their job?
I don't know where these "pure" perfectly spherical software engineers work who are super-senior staff level, but still do nothing but type in code. I've never seen them. As soon as you advance beyond the entry-level, you need to broaden your scope and be more of an actual engineer rather than just someone who writes code.
The manager's job is (among others) to make sure the team is working well together, solve any inter-personnel issues, work with each of their directs on career development, sometimes provide direction of what to work on, sometimes actually assign individual tasks, pass down announcements and direction from the higher-ups, help to manage the team members' performance, and work with HR when needed. They're not there to do all the stinky non-code-typing things in your project.
They’re being pushed until these administrative roles because Directors have no idea how to leverage their talent and default to putting them into EM-like roles because that’s what they do but again, it’s a waste of talent and experience.
Nobody knows our codebase as well as me because I built it. My output of customer value has dropped to 10% of what it used to be and I don’t think it would be possible today to build the things we built pre-acquisition that made us valuable in the first place.
Thankfully we were able to hire another engineer who is very good and has been able to keep up with internal and external requests. I am thankful he’s been able to get up to speed so I don’t leave my coworkers high and dry.
At 35 years old, I’m cooked, Chat. Thriving at a megacorp with these management styles is orthogonal to delivering value to customers.
I think the explanation is simpler, I suspect it's just many people have a desire to be in a different role or multiple roles. Also, successful generalists tend to think everyone should be a generalist. That's why they muddle the role descriptions in their heads.
Schroedinger's manager.
What is the team's manager doing if not coordination, allocation, and tracking?
That may be true, but even the act of looking can provide some measure of hope, which can make everything more bearable.
The ball is squarely in the employer's court and they are maximizing their position accordingly.
Woah, woah, they're not overseas, they're "Virtual Employees" now. You're not supposed to look behind the curtain.
What people actually want is VC money salaries without having to pay the VC piper's price, which is more of a problem.
(AI has changed this somewhat, because it's so energy-intensive that it's become a capital asset. And of course we have to consider the monopolistic nature of software markets.)
The Borg can buy you out, but don’t give them your soul. The world is a better place with more entrepreneurs and new businesses. That part is on us.
And if something is gonna take a few days or a week, all the managers do is ask me five times if I can instead divide the work and farm it out to other engineers. If it isn't taking on the order of hours, they want to throw people at it to go faster. Parallelism is clearly a manager KPI.
Lucky you. :P
I’m lucky enough to work wherever I want and accept Zoom meetings as a prerequisite to that, but find them tiring and a poor simulacrum of real in-person conversation. If I were asked to come to an office every day and deal with the commute and the stupidity of most modern office designs and still had the majority of meetings happen over video, I’d be pretty dissatisfied with my job.
When parts are remote (or if teams are split in 2 locations) you run the risk of excluding people who are remote.
In fully remote situations even water-cooler chats are deliberate.
This facade has started to crack in many places, and RTO is just a very obvious example, it's almost absurd how the companies prizing themselves for being "data-driven" descended into "we're doing this because bossman says so". But it follows the spirit of times anyway, people will quickly adjust.
After working remotely for 8 years, I find video conferencing to be preferable.
* I am more physically comfortable. I can control the thermostat, the humidity, the lighting level. My preference on these three things are very different than standard office. In addition I have better control over items such as the food I am digesting, the office chair I am sitting in, the smells in the room, etc. One concrete example, I am often cold in offices. If I am cold my muscles tend to be tense, and my mind reads that signal and makes me more anxious/alert. I can concentrate better and think more clearly if my body/mind is relaxed.
* Reduction of information to only the most relevant. Do you know how much data you receive when sitting next to another human. Significantly more than the 1000mb/s my home internet connection provides. During a critical negotiation or an intimate moment you might want that extra volume. During engineering it's a distraction. I don't want to smell my co-workers lunch while paired programming. All of the conversations are more focused.
* Consent. I choose to connect. I can choose to disconnect at anytime. I'm never stuck in a conversation while waiting in line for coffee, and if someone virtually decides to drop by my desk, I have more flexibility in dealing with the urgent need.
Personally, though, I do think that the higher-bandwidth effect is valuable to me. I think part of what makes me feel like video calls are tiring is that my brain is working overtime trying to extract some of that extra signal from the participants, while in-person I'm able to better gauge others' reactions intuitively and adjust my tone or approach without much conscious effort. People have told me for years that I have a "calming presence" in the workplace/meetings, which is not a way I'd describe myself unprompted, so I think I've silently benefited from nonverbal cues in that way.
Being in a comfortable environment is a huge one though for sure. So many modern offices are comically badly arranged, with people trying to do thinking work space shared with people having meetings who are overflowing from the insufficient number of conference rooms. It's kind of a joke.
I’d rather move most of this stuff into slack or confluence. It’s more egalitarian, and it has the added benefit that I can search and find the past conversations to reference them later.
- Message board style like Github issues - Slack thread - Email thread - Video call - In person meeting
I do really like in-person meetings for brainstorming or collaborative design type stuff. Having a real whiteboard is hard to beat, and I think the discussion can flow a little more naturally without any latency.
I have found that AI notetakers can bridge this gap fairly well—whether in a virtual meeting or in person. If the calendar event has a virtual meeting with a notetaker that joins by default, someone can join the meeting and throw a phone down on the conference table and everyone gets a full transcript, summary, and list of next steps afterwards. One of my favorite real world applications of LLMs so far.
There are two kickers to this. First the employees have to hot-desk, which means they do not have an assigned desk and have to find a spot each day. Funnily enough, they all had desks before the pandemic...
Secondly, there is a second office essentially just for executives that is elsewhere and not connected to the main one. If Salesforce wants to complain about the cost of owning buildings and getting people to RTO maybe close the superfluous executive office first...
For me the key seems to be getting out of the corporate world, away from companies with a singular focus on profit-making and competition and the endless feature churn, corporate ladder climbing, disruptive managerial edicts to change horses midstream, ridiculous metrics to meet, and the inevitable burnout that environment seems to create. Has anyone else had similar (or contradictory) experiences?
I taught a class recently. It’s pretty much yours to reign over. It made me never want to go back to corporate drudgery. It’s definitely not for everyone. Even into high schools teachers talk about being bullied by students. I don’t know what it’s like there, but some of it’s probably the schools not supporting the teachers with managing a classroom. Classroom management is really hard ime.
Benefits are nice too.
Checking back in with my friends who I left behind I made the right decision.
I was in ad tech, specifically media analysis and pipeline evals.
Knowing what qualities to look for, them still existing, and being able to find them... are 3 different things. :)
I spent a decade in FAANG, then burned out and left. I’m at an early-stage startup now and couldn’t be happier.
The pressures are very different. My most stressful episodes at this startup have been related to technical problems, where I ultimately feel that I’m in control. My most stressful episodes in FAANG were ones in which I fundamentally had little to no control, but had “accountability” (i.e. blame) for the outcome.
For example, I vividly remember being on a flight to visit my ailing grandmother, and having chest pains from stress due to a parallel team throwing up a red flag weeks before the launch of a years-long project. They were a team of specialists whose work I could not personally do, and I had gotten their sign off on the project months prior. Team members changed, and a new person took issue with a fundamental aspect of the project.
I still believe there was nothing I could have reasonably done differently, as I didn’t have the domain knowledge to get sign-off in this area, and had done my due diligence of engaging the team and getting their sign off. Both my manager and their manager agreed, saying that there was nothing more I could have done, and even going so far as to say that I had been set up to fail.
However, this was of course treated as a significant failure on my part, and was held against me as the reason for lack of promotion. Way up my management chain, people were congratulated for the eventual launch of this project which was bringing in tens of millions in revenue.
That’s about the time I left.
> the key seems to be getting out of the corporate world, away from companies with a singular focus on profit-making and competition
In my experience there are still healthy corporations out there. The signals I now look for are: profitable, privately held, not pursuing IPOs or buyers, grow headcount slowly (if at all), have never needed layoffs, promote engineers into positions of authority, and have high average employee tenure.
It's refreshing to work in an organization where people feel secure enough to make long-term investments in infrastructure, people, and projects that may not pay dividends for many years. (And to be the beneficiary of decades of prior long-term investments.)
> in an industry where there is not much competition
This hasn't matched my experience so far. The less external competition there is to align the company, the more employees seem to channel that drive into internal competition for resources and petty office politics.
Thinking about the best jobs in my tech career, in one case I made a list of companies that were biking distance from my house, in another an ex-classmate recruited me, in another a recruiter cold-called after I moved to a new state.
Beyond "being lucky" I'm not really sure how to generalize those experiences, though I will say that if you can identify things that you value differently from most that may help you find opportunities that are undervalued.
On the flip side, as I've gotten older I think I've gotten better at recognizing when an organization is a poor fit and having the confidence (and the savings) to turn it down or walk away even if the position is high-status, highly-paid, and/or seems like a perfect fit on paper. That can be especially hard if everyone from your family to your coworkers is telling you you're crazy.
Edit: This appears to be covered thoroughly in the thread ChrisArchitect links to.
Quits rate (ie. the opposite of "trapped and has nowhere to go") saw a spike in 2022-2023, but that associated with lower job satisfaction rating compared to 2020. There was also a huge dip in the quits rate after 2008, but engagement barely moved.
(imho, n=1, scholar of the macro and the human, I am an internet rando trying to read the room and could be wrong)
UBI is a nonstarter and the entire country is unprepared for this new future we're creating. What exactly is there to be excited about?
[^1]: https://www.salesforceben.com/salesforce-will-hire-no-more-s...
[citation needed] and not from an AI company's marketing materials.
- https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/08/business/ai-job-losses-by-203...
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-12/klarna-st...
- https://www.salesforceben.com/salesforce-will-hire-no-more-s...
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2023/05/01/ibm-...
In the age of AI, no human job is a profit center any more. EVERY job is a cost center and it's the duty of CEOs to reduce those expenses.
It will take some time but it will die, just as visual programming, total quality management etc...
Anyone who thinks that code generation is the primary issue has no real understanding of the core problems.
I think that companies that view AI as empowering workers to produce more, will blow past the ones dominated by bean counters and MBAs looking to optimize their quarterly earnings reports.
Typically this is impossible, because those staff are the top management. (I'd say "leadership" if they were actually that.)
If they don't comply, make good on your threat.
Maybe it’s me who is out of touch, but how is that the author’s honest take away? That low interest rates make people better managers?
I’m not buying it. It doesn’t cost anything to make sure employees feel valued, unless you’re doing things to hold back their careers. At which point, you’re probably not concerned about employee satisfaction to begin with.
Does that make line managers better or worse at being line managers? Probably not. But it may affect the experience of being managed if your manager is more or less stressed about fighting for headcount, figuring out who to lay off, fitting performance review ratings to a curve, etc.
When managers' own heads are also on the chopping block in a tough job market, they're going to prioritize looking out for their own ass. If "leadership" is saying "boil the frogs or you're gone", they're probably going to do it. Even if they don't want to.
But it does. Even something as simple as writing a thank you email has an opportunity cost. In that time a sales person could initiate a new call, or an engineer could write another paragraph on a design doc.
It's why engineers having free coffee, or even BYO coffee, is such a bellweather. When the free coffee goes, the good times go with it. It costs the company nothing to let engineers BYO coffee, yet my friends and I have been with many a company that eventually set up a small coffee shop or a pay-per-cup coffee machine and go around confiscating employee-brought coffee machines. Historically they cite a "fire hazard" or some similar safety issue.
> That low interest rates make people better managers?
It's not entirely wrong. Higher interest rates reduce investment frequency and amount because it increases the risk and opportunity cost. When interest rates are low it's easier to justify to investors/board members that diverting some capital to employee value and satisfaction. When interest rates are high, things like the aforementioned thank you email becomes an inefficiency, reducing your attractiveness to investors. An extra 2% on a 10MM loan is 200k, and someone's gotta provide that additional revenue. Suddenly free coffee, unsupervised/unmonitored work (like remote), and thank you letters don't provide direct increased revenue while a sales call or design doc could.
Meanwhile—I can't even expect regular keeping-up-with-inflation raises, let alone a reasonable promotion schedule. Fuck the current job market I'm moving to china.
I hope you enjoy a 6 day work week.
Regardless, my friends in china seem to work hours that roughly align with 40-50 hours a week, similar to you'd see here.
What's a little more interesting (and not at all mentioned in the Axios article) is there is a parallel increase in /active disengagement/. There's clearly a significant minority who consistently feels disconnected from work, but this is back on the rise.
We're also reading a summary of a summary of a Gallup poll by Jim Harter, Ph.D. who posted 5 months ago [2] that "U.S. Employee Engagement Inches Up Slightly After 11-Year Low" [3], so I'm not sure what conclusions to draw.
Unrelated to the links, DOE immediately stop as soon as they realize they're reading derivative commentary and immediately search for whatever source material is being referenced? Unless you have access to the survey information[4] everyone in this thread is already at least two degrees removed from the data (Jim Harter -> Emily Peck -> HN).
[1] https://www.gallup.com/workplace/654911/employee-engagement-...
[2] https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jkharter_after-us-employee-en...
[3] https://www.gallup.com/workplace/647564/employee-engagement-...
Then, when it gets reported, the article focuses on what gets the most attention. It reports on America, even though if you look at the survey's own data you find that American workers' engagement is higher than most of the world. It reports on a 10-year low, even though the overall trend is that engagement has gotten higher over time, and the current dip isn't very pronounced.
Because if they didn't do that, there wouldn't be much to report on. The truth is that there isn't. But, Gallup is selling this survey methodology, so.
That's not as bad a self-reported perception as I would've guessed.
As bosses continue to treat workers worse and worse, the more we're starting to go, "wait a second, all this culture war bullshit it's just a distraction meant to keep us from banding together."
If you combine regulator/access control with central bank zero rate, it is a guaranteed giveaway for the rich. By definition you are giving the powerful unlimited free money.
Because of course Joe blow on the street can't get a zero or negative loan. He has to get it from the bank who gets to pocket the free money.
And a free loan can be fractionally scaled by a bank I would imagine.
Even though everyone is rolling their eyes at what they’re saying / doing it does seem to have shifted the equivalent of the Overton window. It’s made it more socially acceptable to speak up about the pointlessness of corporate life
It's fulfilling to see stuff built that you advocated for! Or policies enacted that get more housing built.
We are in the computing era (plus robotics), not in the 19th century.
The median individual is not going to be working less than 40 hours a week. The system has found a balancing point and people will compete with each other for the money, resources and status as much as their sanity can endure it. There is nothing anachronistic about it, because it has been the case long before 19th century and will remain the case long after 19th century.
Today, ~1600 school districts across 24 states in the US are on 4 day weeks to attempt to retain teachers, for example.
https://www.aei.org/research-products/working-paper/world-de...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/us-faces-... | https://archive.today/Lyr5t
https://www.axios.com/2023/05/08/us-labor-shortage-older-wor...
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26633/w266...
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2025/01/rise-of-4-day-workweek
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
We can do the same for 30 hour working weeks in this century.
But there is. We literally live in the most era time in the entirety of human history.
Back in March '23, Powell talked about enacting monetary policy specifically to raise unemployment. Labor was too strong, wages were too high. He felt that this was contributing to inflation. A lot of economists, like Jeremy Siegel, said there was too much low hanging fruit for the fed to be so focused on increasing unemployment, which would cause a lot of disruption to the working class for minimal gain. The fed will generally side with capital though.
(summary: "we" don't tend to think like a "we")
1. Not all workers are of the same mind. And minds haven't changed much. The decline in engagement is only few percentage points, and appears to be a return to the norm. If there was a catastrophic decline, things might be different.
2. Making waves requires work. You have to do things like talk to your representative, while most people would rather use that time to talk to their friends/family/random internet strangers instead.
Things like illegal immigration, offshoring and H1B take this a step further. With the incoming admin pushing for more H1Bs, how could we hope to organize when they’ll just import replacements?
We need to stop measuring GDP and start measuring things like the Gini coefficient as an indicator of how healthy our economy is.
I'm with the rest of your points here but this point seems like an irrelevant, unsubstantiated musing to push an agenda.
Nobody is thinking "wow, a sociologist's opinion about labor in the 1700s makes me hate the thought of unionizing in God's-given-year-of 2025"
If you’re annoyed with “woke”, form a group to protest that.
Nobody falls for the "we" scam anymore.
Society needs new morals for this new age. Even though capitalistically this kind of behavior is incentivized / almost required, humanistically it is not. Giving one person money for fucking over a lot of other people is actually NOT okay. But if the only metric by which it is judged is economic, then it seems fine. Organizing to fix things like this requires, basically, a collective consciousness (something like the "class consciousness" of yore, but that feels like an antiquated phrase from an antique age).
It is the same role that "freedom of the press" is supposed to fill (in a world where press is less dominated by strategic PR campaigns/subliminal advertisements like it is today). If people can't align their thoughts together, they can't rebel, or revolt, and the way things are today definitely merits a revolution -- hence the entrenched powers are very interested in suppressing the alignment of thoughts. (Certainly China's censorship is the best example of this, but it happens on Western internet too, in a more subtle way. Keeping everyone outraged over the other villainous political party is a great way to keep them from realizing that the daily apparatus of their life is designed to loot them.)
The other way people align their thoughts is finding a leader willing to voice them. That is, basically, what Trump has been doing, for a class of folks who are pissed about some other stuff (some of it real, but much of it deeply contorted by tricks of propaganda). Well, there are a lot of other folks without those kinds of leaders right now. Most of the people on here for instance. If anyone reading is thinking about dropping the follow-the-rules mentality and becoming an outspoken revolutionary, please do, but be sure you're attacking the real problem, not just the least-likable people who it's easiest to bandwagon against.
There seems to be a large subset of people in this world that are still on the Medieval moral framework of "Might makes Right." With the modern definition of "Might" being money. And unfortunately, those are the people that seem to make it into power.
Stands to reason, assuming a democratic nation. The law is to the will of the people so when something is deemed not fine, they do make it illegal. There will always be outliers who hold different views, but when randomly meeting other people the chances are you will most likely meet those who fit within the majority.
This is not surprising. We’ve devalued character development in the west for quite some time.
Hashing out the consequences of "so transitively, I suppose I'm aligned with you now"... that's where the hard work is (solidarity, etc) but most of us aren't even considering that stage yet. We're still a bunch of smaller us's squabbling amongst ourselves--just how the powerful like it.