Comment by butter999 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by butter999 | Hacker News Reader

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By "appropriate" I meant "fitting" or "suitable". Just in case you took my meaning as "inappropriate in conversation," I could have been more clear, my mistake.

My supposition about the necessity of ground rules is precisely as supported as the alternatives offered in this discussion. Poorly supported by the standards of rigorous debate, I agree, but supported enough for casual discussion. No one has offered any evidence CoCs are caused by busybodies. ("Silently" seems unnecessary, it wasn't silent, I stated it aloud and described why I thought it was so. I can't help but point out again, you go on to dispute it, but not with any evidence. I think that's fine for casual discussion, but it's not meeting the bar you're setting.)

"Scheme to elevate property values" is a shared interest if all of the homeowners primarily view their homes as financial instruments. People get bent out of shape with HOAs because they want their home for other things. Some people would rather put up radio towers or paint their house a garish color or park a truck on their lawn than maximize their property value.

CoCs are as old as dirt. I signed one every single year in elementary school, decades ago. They've been a norm in workplaces for a long time. They're more recent in open source projects, and they started because of problems projects were having - people being creepy at conferences, people starting drama on mailing lists, etc.

What's recent is the politicization of CoCs.

If it helps, I would agree that busybodies might abuse both of these mechanisms to impose themselves on their neighbors and colleagues. I disagree that that is the root of why they exist, on the basis that they can be explained by incentives and pragmatic considerations. On an Occam's razor basis, if I don't need to assume busybodies are the motivating force to explain the existence of these things, then I won't, until such a time I receive evidence I can't explain without them. Were we colleagues, and I were involved in drafting a CoC, "I don't want a CoC because I'm worried it will be abused by busybodies" is a concern I'd take seriously.

> By "appropriate" I meant "fitting" or "suitable".

I felt that the analogy was both of those.

> "Silently" seems unnecessary, it wasn't silent

You wrote "it's pretty obvious why you need to set ground rules" in regards to CoCs, which implies that CoCs are the primary or preferred or standard means for doing that. It's an unstated premise, and one that I disagree with.

> you go on to dispute it, but not with any evidence.

You implied a rather sweeping claim (the necessity of CoCs to enforce ground rules) which I believe puts the burden of evidence squarely on you.

While not obligated by social convention, I believe my point that social norms have not historically been codified as CoCs qualifies as a veritable mountain of evidence disputing your implication. People have been successfully collaborating (and enforcing social ground rules) for approximately all of human history; CoCs in comparison are a quite recent development.

> "Scheme to elevate property values" is a shared interest if all of the homeowners primarily view their homes as financial instruments.

You could as well claim that noise ordinances aren't a shared interest because some people like to party in their yard into the wee hours. The observation would be correct but it would not support the claim. Note that even if the group collectively chooses not to prioritize something it still remains a shared interest inasmuch as the definition of "interest" is something which has a negative or positive impact on the individual.

> they started because of problems projects were having - people being creepy at conferences, people starting drama on mailing lists, etc.

Agreed that those are certainly the sorts of things that the people in favor of them claimed as justification. That those things were happening at a problematic rate, that a CoC would meaningfully reduce that rate, that the benefits of this reduction would outweigh any negative impacts a CoC might have, and that this was their motivation in pursuing their adoption. I was never convinced, particularly on that last point.

As far as drama on mailing lists goes, I believe the results in the years since speak for themselves. Any self respecting troll would be envious of the amount of drama CoCs have been used to kick up. In that sense they truly are exactly like an HoA.

> What's recent is the politicization of CoCs.

I believe that politicization you refer to is what drove the recent widespread adoption in open source projects that you speak of. As but one example, consider the route that sqlite took and how controversially that was received. Surely if the reasoning driving the adoption was as you suggest then very few people would have been bothered by the document that project adopted.

> On an Occam's razor basis, if I don't need to assume busybodies are the motivating force

For the record, you are the one who brought busybodies into this. My previous claim was merely that CoCs are "unnecessary for productive collaboration". If you had asked I would have answered that I think politics are the motivating force. Regardless, you merely assumed a different motivating force and I am unconvinced by it. From my perspective, if I don't need to assume the sudden and mysterious breakdown in the ability of people to constructively collaborate in the absence of CoCs then I won't.

You are applying standards only to my comments. Your statements are just as "sweeping" and "silent". We're both just asserting stuff based on our experiences, but it only seems to be a problem when I do it. I'm doing my best to have a productive discussion, but I don't think it's possible under the circumstances.

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