Hacker News Reader

Comment by lijok | Hacker News Reader

For those interested in getting informed, I strongly recommend listening to John Mearsheimer's thoughts on the crisis in Ukraine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 is a great talk on this).

Once you understand the history behind NATO's expansionism, the unfortunate role Ukraine serves as a buffer zone, and the failures of US foreign policy under Obama, you will see how the crisis in Ukraine started. Then, once you factor in Zelenskyy's "non-negotiables", you will see how this exchange, while unprofessional, is not surprising in the slightest.

View on HN

The problem with Mearsheimer is that he completely ignores the people of Ukraine.

His analysis makes sense if you think people only live in the US and in Russia, and that Ukraine were an object.

But when you realize that Ukrainians are people, and they are choosing democracy and integration with the West -- it's not something the US is instigating -- Mearsheimer's analysis falls apart.

Because ultimately, Mearsheimer doesn't believe Ukrainians should have any choice over their own country. That only Great Powers like Russia and the US get to make choices.

This argument doesn’t make sense now that Ukraine lost the war, now it’s empirically proven that Ukrainians don’t in fact get to choose and this line of thinking is what led to the war in the first place.

> now that Ukraine lost the war

Ukraine hasn't lost the war, what are you talking about?

Maybe in a couple more years we'll get to the point where that is clear, or even less. Or maybe Russia's economy will collapse (as it is currently teetering) first, and runs out of tanks and the ability to pay soldiers.

Just because US support seems largely gone, doesn't mean European support is. Europeans have been providing more financial support than the US has. And even if the US won't be paying to send US weapons to Ukraine, doesn't mean Europe won't be able to pay the US for those same weapons to send to Ukraine.

The west has immense influence on Ukrainians, and have pushed for their integration into NATO for decades.

The arguments Mearsheimer is making are not whether Ukrainians should or should not have autonomy. It’s whether they do. And the sad reality is that they don’t, due to their unfortunate situation.

> and have pushed for their integration into NATO for decades

That's not true.

I don't know of any Western governments that have been "pushing" for NATO integration for Ukraine. Certainly not the US. And certainly not "the West" as a whole.

There have been internal debates in the West over whether Ukraine should be admitted to NATO if Ukraine wants to. And way back in 2008, Bush Jr. commented that he supported Ukraine on a path to NATO membership. But that's not "pushing" -- that's allowing in response to a desire from Ukraine.

> The west has immense influence on Ukrainians

I don't know what this even means. Do you think Ukrainians don't think for themselves, or something? That seems awfully paternalistic.

Listen to the talk. A lot of this discussion is pointless because you’re missing information that was presented in the parent.

"NATO expansionism" is 100% pure, refined Russian propaganda. Countries join NATO because they are afraid of Russia and Ukraine is the proof they are right to be afraid. I don't know why I'm even writing this. Noone with half a brain believes this crap in good faith.

Is NATO not expanding? What are you arguing here exactly?

Russian narrative: Russia is forced to invade countries because they want to join NATO.

Reality: Countries wants to join NATO, the defensive alliance, because Russia repeatedly invades countries.

NATO has expanded because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and neither Finland nor Sweden would've joined if Russia didn't attack Ukraine.

It would appear that you're trying to present the two narratives as mutually exclusive. One of the points Mearsheimer is making is that both of these narratives are simulatenously true and the west must appreciate the geopolitics in play to enable foreign policy good enough to deal with this issue.

Besides the point, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with entropyneur's claim that NATO expanding is a "russian propaganda".

Reply on news.ycombinator.com