Comment by Falling3 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Falling3 | Hacker News Reader

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And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be. Your family may have been a step ahead most of today's farms, but I still take issue with several of your points.

>You mean until they are old enough to feed on their own. The reason they are individualized in early life is because otherwise the stronger calves will eat all of the food and who wants to see a calf starve? Even while in the hutch ("igloo"), the calves are free to interact with the nearby calves in other hutches.

No I don't. The only reason that would be an issue is if they are not drinking milk naturally from the mother. All across the Midwest are small and medium sized cattle ranches with calves of all ages getting on just fine. The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money. And I honestly have not seen a single case where calves are free to interact with each other. They're either tied up or fenced in.

>I'm not sure the general population does know how that goes. I've heard all kinds of horrific stories about how veal calves, specifically, are mistreated. The only differentiator for veal is the age of the animal, otherwise they live like any other beef calf.

I'm actually surprised you said this because it's 100% wrong. Veal in the US is almost exclusively the male offspring of dairy cows - usually Holsteins. They are never beef breeds and their lives are extremely different. In order to get the tender meat, they are put on a formula deficient in Iron and either tied up or kept in small crates, which I have witnessed many times. This combination produces the light, tender meat veal is known for. I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm.

>Sadly, calving is hard on the animal. To be fair, this is something humans equally struggled with until the advent of modern medicine.

It sure is. It's a tremendous amount of stress to put on a female's body. That's the issue.

> And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be.

Indeed. We poured a lot of money into improving the lives of the animals through the years. Things are definitely better than it used to be for the animals. The conditions in some of these modern barns are worlds ahead of the past. Are all things perfect? Probably not, but it is a process.

> The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money.

I do not deny that the calf is separated from the mother, but that is quite different to being individually penned up for years as you claimed. I don't know of any dairy farmer who keeps the calves individualized beyond the first month or so.

> I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm.

The veal we raised, once they were weaned from the milk, ate mainly grasses, and corn in their final days. The same diet we fed the beef cattle. The only real difference being that they went to market as a smaller animal. If you missed that window, they got sent to market as regular beef cattle.

There is milk-fed veal that you speak of too, but it seems to be less common in my experience. I know that some farmers do kept them tied up in small crates, but you're painting a whole industry with a small brush again. One abusive farmer doesn't mean that all farmers are abusive.

For what it is worth, I'm in Canada. Maybe the US has stricter definitions about what constitutes as veal, I don't know.

I will amend that Canada has supply management for dairy. American dairy farmers are, on the whole, far less wealthy. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy comes into play? I imagine if you cannot make ends meet, the animals will suffer. I really don't see things being nearly as bad as you make it out to be here though.

Maybe some of the disconnect is the fact that we're talking about different countries. Veal is quite different here, and I don't think it's a matter of strict definitions. It's just a matter of efficiency and what people like. Here are some numbers about what the makeup of the industry is like: http://www.dairyherd.com/e-newsletters/dairy-daily/141067953.... I think broad brushes are entirely appropriate.

We do have a depressing lack of welfare laws for farm animals here, and that surely has a lot to do with it.

> We do have a depressing lack of welfare laws for farm animals here, and that surely has a lot to do with it.

One thing I always like to point out is that we have completely stopped growing GMO soybeans on our farm because the market demanded it. Consumers have a lot of control over the actions of farmers. You really don't need legislation to start solving the problems you see, you just have to start asking for what you want changed.

I believe the Canadian government does not subsidize dairy farming while the USA does so. Specifically, farmer's cooperatives in Canada have self imposed quotas while in the USA, there are no quotas but there are subsidies. Do you think this creates different incentives, resulting in different cattle rearing practices?

That's what I wonder given how grim the parent makes it sound compared to my experiences, but I haven't been around enough farms in the US to say with any absolute certainty.

The average heard size in Canada is about 60 cows and you can make a decent living with that. From what I understand the in US, 60 cows will leave you living in absolute poverty. If you cannot afford to live yourself, I expect the cows won't have much of a life either. But that's just an assumption.

It is a good question though, and especially timely as the Canadian government is seriously leaning towards scrapping the quota system entirely.

> If you cannot afford to live yourself, I expect the cows won't have much of a life either. But that's just an assumption.

That's a fair assumption for a commercial operation. In India, small holders (2-3 cattle) are in majority & the primary use is for tilling fields. Consequently, cattle are considered & treated as family members, rather than as milk producing machines. Even if the farmer has to live frugally, he/she does not ill treat cattle.

> It is a good question though, and especially timely as the Canadian government is seriously leaning towards scrapping the quota system entirely.

Thanks for that info - will be interesting to assess the outcome if the shift happens.

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