Ask HN: How do I deal with a cease and desist notice for my open HW project? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do I deal with a cease and desist notice for my open HW project?

12 pointsIPMess12 comments

Hi HN,

I've been working on an open-source hardware project for years, but the hosting site where I posted the documentation received a cease and desist notice to remove it. Strangely, they didn’t contact me directly. I'm nearing the end of the project and planning to sell the device, but now I'm concerned about legal risks.

An IP lawyer told me even a basic patent review would cost thousands, which is out of my budget. My research suggests many of these threats are intimidation tactics, but it feels different when you're the target.

I'm looking for advice from those who’ve dealt with similar HW-related legal issues. I see three options:

    Abandon the project (losing years of work and money)
    Pivot, but risk another dispute (everything seems patented)
    Call their bluff and hope they don’t sue

Am I thinking about this clearly? Thank you.

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> "An IP lawyer told me even a basic patent review would cost thousands"

What is claimed that you infringed? From that you can start by searching yourself if you really infringed their patents. Look at the claims, not at the main introductory text. Good patents are novel, non-obvious and useful.

If you feel you have infringed their patents, then you can search for prior art to their patents. But for you to have some chance to convince a judge who has no knowledge of the domain, any prior art has to be pretty obvious.

They were not specific in the letter. It's not clear to me what counts as infringement. Some of the claims are so obvious, like "cloud connected", it makes me wonder what that the point of the patent system is other than to grant monopolies to those with money.

There are earlier patents that look similar to me, but I have no idea what would convince a judge. The lawyer I talked with said they could provide their best legal advice (for lots of money), but that doesn't guarantee I won't get sued and have to defend myself (again lots of money).

I am not a lawyer but I have some experience in patents (I was granted 12 patents), can you send me:

- Some general information about your project features and working.

- The identity of the organization or the individuals who sent the letter, this is to identify their possible patents.

- The number identifying those patents that look like your hardware, to see if they originate from this organization.

- The claims in the letter (not the letter itself please)

- Two dates:

* First, the date that the organization claims to have made IP similar to your hardware

* Second at which date you made your project public

I promise you nothing and anyway, I am not a lawyer, and I have no connections with orgs like EFF.

My email is in my profile

> "the patent system is other than to grant monopolies to those with money"

Unfortunately, if an actor with deep pockets challenges a small actor, the former actor can bankrupt the small actor.

> many of these threats are intimidation tactics, but it feels different when you're the target.

Yep, they are deliberately pushing your buttons to make you fearful. And fear doesn't change the reality of whether or not they have an actual basis for their letter. It is just a letter. They have not sued. Even if they sue, that doesn't mean they have a strong case. Even if they have a strong case, that doesn't mean they still aren't aiming for a settlement of some kind.

A friend of mine who is an attorney once told me that getting sued is a milestone, not a disaster - if nobody is suing you, you aren't making any waves. I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy, but the point is - this is just a letter. Quitting the project over it is letting bullies win. Don't do that.

The best recommendation is to talk to a lawyer. None of us can possibly have a clue what the best move is without knowing all the details, so tell those details to someone who is qualified to give you actual legal advice.

Yeah, I hate letting the bullies win as well.

> The best recommendation is to talk to a lawyer. None of us can possibly have a clue what the best move is without knowing all the details, so tell those details to someone who is qualified to give you actual legal advice.

Fair enough. I understand the internet can't substitute professional legal advice, but even the lawyers I talked with advised against hiring them since I'm not making any money yet. They're not wrong considering their fees. So what is the average hobbyist/small business supposed to do?

Call their bluff and hope they don’t sue

The fact they have not contacted you directly means they have nothing actionable.

Sounds like cheap puppet play... Don't be intimidated by them.

The advice when such questions are asked is almost always to get a lawyer. But maybe if you think it is a frivolous lawsuit you can reach out to the EFF for help?

Thanks. I've considered the EFF, but their criteria for taking on cases prioritizes cases that have a broad impact on the internet and privacy. I guess emailing them couldn't hurt. Maybe I could consider getting investments to fund the legal costs.

Primptly contact the EFF for advice on finding a lawyer, yes. Your lawyer's initial advice may be to take down the docs for the time being. Your lawyer is likely to then send them a letter asking them to explain "with specificity" (those are magic words) exactly what part of your project is infringing and how it can be modified to not infringe.

Maybe try and contact someone familiar with fighting patent trolls as this may very well be what you're dealing with: https://www.newegg.com/insider/newegg-vs-patent-trolls-when-...

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