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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

I agree. The Chinese seem happy with their government. And it’s done amazing things for the Chinese people. But the point isn’t to hurt China, it’s to reduce US dependence on China.

Americans should proceed with the assumption that the Chinese are a co-equal great power. As we are seeing in areas like AI and electric cars, China isn’t cheap foreign labor. They’re at the leading edge or close in our heels in many technologies. Given that, it’s imperative to reduce American dependence on China. In a world where the average Chinese is as prosperous as the average American—which may happen in our lifetimes—isn’t a good idea for China to have 200x of America’s shipbuilding capacity without America trying to rebuild its own? It’s precisely because China inevitably will become America’s equal economically and technologically that America needs to ensure its own independence and sovereignty.

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> the point isn’t to hurt China, it’s to reduce US dependence on China

This was the Thiel pitch. We’re instead driving our allies and trade partners into China’s arms.

> Americans should proceed with the assumption that the Chinese are a co-equal great power

America basically has been. Coëqual great powers compete. (And China is a regional power on the verge of becoming a great power. It doesn’t yet have demonstrated force-projection capabilities, though it’s building them.)

>The Chinese seem happy with their government.

Given how much effort Beijing exerts in suppressing dissent and managing the public conversation about China, how would you or I find out if most Chinese were unhappy with their government?

In fact, there are many college students and employees in China who use VPN to view foreign networks, just like what I am doing now. I can tell you responsibly that we understand the government's suppression of dissent, although many of us are dissatisfied with this, but there is a consensus that we need a harmonious, stable and positive society. Chinese people are not fools, we will also complain to the government, we have many channels, and in fact we have seen that the government is changing. In recent years, the efficiency of the province where I live has been very high, and we are quite satisfied. Many times foreigners will misunderstand the Chinese government as a high-pressure dictatorship, but if you really live in China, you will find that things are not like that.

Your comment made me kind of sad. I remember many years ago, during the Arab Spring, President Obama went to the Uk Parliament and said the following:

"we have learned better than most that the longing for freedom and human dignity is not English or American or Western –- it is universal, and it beats in every heart."

I remember several years earlier President George W Bush, when asked about China, said:

“Young people who grow up with freedom in one area of their lives will ultimately demand freedom in other areas"

So it seems sad to me personally today that I see the comment you have made. I am not too surprised though. It feels such sentiments have been making their way to many countries all over the world nowadays. I feel sad because 10 years ago it really felt like freedom, democracy, etc would continue spreading all over the world...

How do people in China feel when they see stuff like this said by American politicians and commenters? Such as the President Obama and President Bush quotations and speeches I posted and linked?

Source for Obama's comments made in 2011:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2011/0...

Source for Bush's comments made in 2008:

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/13451-bush-reiterates-conc...

My friend, I like you, and I like this place too. Most people on HN are very friendly. I understand your sadness. But please don't feel sad for me. I once read a book called On Liberty when I was a freshman in high school. I also read 1984 and The Road to Serfdom (stereotyped, some people may think that such books are banned from sale in China). At that time, I began to realize that our country restricted the freedom of citizens in some aspects. Later, I asked our university teacher, and she said that freedom is always relative, but I still don't quite understand this sentence. But there is one thing I can understand, that there is always a gap between real freedom and ideal freedom. For example, are your people really free? The words can be said very beautifully, but practice is often another matter. If you look at the development process of capitalist countries, have they also sacrificed the freedom of some people? I remember that your people flocked to RedNote a while ago, saying that the lower-class Americans worked several jobs to maintain the high rent. I was actually a little surprised, because in the past, such things would only be associated with our country. Are they free? Maybe I am making a choice between economy and freedom, but freedom is indeed not an independent concept. It is complex and related to many factors. So I simply don’t think about it. It is enough for me to work hard, improve myself, improve my life and create value.

Thank you for your polite and courteous reply.

It was interesting to read your perspective.

Thank you for your insight

> there is a consensus that we need a harmonious, stable and positive society

It's not clear to me that there's any link between China's authoritarian government and its harmony/stability. Taiwan is richer per-capita than China and just as stable, without an authoritarian government.

In fact, I suspect that China will be rich and harmonious as long as it's not at war (with itself or a foreign power). The authoritarianism is just a historical coincidence.

This account you’re replying to is unironically pro authoritarian just so you know.

Not saying that as trying to start a flame war but their comment history is clearly and openly in line with incredibly partisan and pro authoritarian views and so if you’re looking to understand what they are saying I’m pointing out that it’s not a particularly deep and nuanced view they are trying to make

This is some weird American version of Juche, not reducing dependency on China. Can you explain the dependency reduction mechanism to me?

Just as an analogy: If you were to detonate all nuclear weapons in the US inside the US you would also reduce dependency on China. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. The path matters.

> But the point isn’t to hurt China, it’s to reduce US dependence on China.

If the point is to reduce dependence on China, why is Trump starting a trade war with everyone? Also, as many people have pointed out, there's little point in applying tariffs without also providing some kind of boost to the relevant industries - this is just hooliganism by Trump.

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