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Comment by valenterry | Hacker News Reader

> The problem is not the bureaucracy.

It absolutely is. Try to open a company in Germany. Then try to do your tax. Then try to close your company.

After that, let's talk again about bureaucracy.

Oh, and the new government just announced plans that non-employeed people (freelancers, business owners, ...) are now forced to pay into national pension (with few exceptions). And don't get me started on that one. Just as an example, national pension charges based on your income. But they have a different way to calculate income than the tax office.

Let me say it in other words if it's not clear yet: If someone is practically unable to do all the above without an accountant then the bureaucracy is absolutely out of hands.

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You make it sound much harder than it is. I've done that and am doing that.

It's totally possible that it's easier in other countries, I don't know that.

But if you're serious about building a company, this is the least of your challenges.

Hire a tax advisor and accountant through a payroll and tax service provider and you'll spend 1-2 days a year dealing with this stuff.

> Hire a tax advisor and accountant through a payroll

And this is exactly how you kill off lots of innovation by adding unnecessary hurdles. Tax advisors are Hella expensive and hard to contract even. I'm speaking from experience.

No offense but if that's what kills your entrepreneurial spirit it doesn't sound like it would've carried you very far. It's really not that hard if you want it. You'll need it sooner or later anyway if you want to be more than a one man show.

Like I said, you'll be facing a lot of substantially greater challenges.

The world isn't black and white like that. Some people even want to do those things on the side. And some become more than a one man show after some time and without having planned that. Not every one has (or has to have) the kind of extreme passion that you are referring to.

One might decide to act out one's entrepreneurial spirit in a different country ...

Sure, but if that's your reason to do that you're not being reasonable.

The point is that relative to everything else you need to get right to build a successful company in any country, taxes, payroll and accounting in Germany frankly don't even register.

Like I said, it's 1-2 days out of a year for me.

If that seems like a big hurdle, it wasn't the reason you didn't build a business.

There are challenges with building a business that are specific to Germany that actually matter.

By contrast, the concerns about bureaucracy are a tired stereotype. There's a grain of truth to them, but if they really pose a challenge to you, you didn't want to do this in the first place.

Have you also done these things in the US? I have heard this sentiment that the German system is far and above the more bureaucratic before, but for all I know, Americans could just be relatively complacent in comparison to Germans and our systems function nearly identically. I’d like to hear from someone if they have been through both processes first hand who could answer this question.

Americans constantly complain about the tax system and, like them or not in practice, a lot of US citizens on both sides of the aisle believe in one of the stated goals of DOGE (previously named the US Digital Service).

> Have you also done these things in the US?

No, and in the context of the thread I care little about the US. This thread is about Germany and is specifically about "they [the companies] are drowning in bureaucracy" and "The problem is not the bureaucracy". And my post was a response to that. The US might be worse (I doubt it) but it has basically no relevance imo.

It has relevance in establishing the amount of bureaucracy relative to the largest government in the West.

I quit my last job because of bureaucracy and I’m considering moving to Germany, so as individual, it is very important to me. Thanks for explaining to me that my life and major factors in my decision are irrelevant. Very helpful.

I feel that Germany can do better than reach for criticism of America whenever challenged on its own merits.

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