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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

Servers at a lot of restaurants don't expect to make minimum wage, so don't let "the owners will have have to true comp up to minimum wage" function as an excuse not to tip. If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.

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Servers are typically loving the current state because they frequently make way more than minimum wage(after tips). They all know they’d make the equivalent of back of house/fast food wages if the employer was paying it in full.

Despite this the general attitude is such that most people are cheap for anything less than ~20%, I’ve heard that even the servers running the take out stand expect these types of tips. The sense of entitlement is crazy, it’s such a low skill job and I’m so rarely actually impressed by the service or even attention I receive (there’s a general/generational degradation of all service that’s occurred in past say 15-20 years).

Yes, for some people the current situation works great.

But for plenty of others, the current situation sees them being exploited and payed less than minimum wage. It isnt a rare few either. I'm not okay with a situation where a large group is being exploited below the poverty line, just because it works out better for another large group.

Nobody gets paid less than minimum wage. The employer needs to make up that difference if tips don’t cover it.

Agree. I think this is nearly an imaginary problem. Although plenty of crappy restaurant owners and the economics of the industry make scamming employees an occasional occurrence. Thankfully all those employees usually have the ability to pick up a new job anytime anywhere. So, it’s not like we have a perpetually entrapped underclass of people getting paid peanuts and being exploited

And all employees know of those rights, and all employers freely give them?

Personally, I don't believe that at all. I do conceed that, if this were the case, things would be fine.

I think employees know about it, but don’t say anything because it marks you as a low performer, and it’s very easy to fire low performers.

At the same time, employees know that tips are incredibly lucrative for them, and would rather have a sub minimum wage day every once in a while for the on average above minimum wage pay. There’s a reason servers don’t want to get rid of tips.

That being said, none of this is my problem as a customer. If you choose not to pursue your rights that’s on you at the end of the day. I’m not going to feel bad that your scheme to have me subsidize your wages failed.

I think they are saying that employers are breaking the law.

Ok, so bring it up with the NLRB.

So here you are w/the American society: blame one category of people (in this case consumers) for when another category doesn't benefit of a minimum for subsistence.

> If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.

Whenever I dine at such a place, I give a 100% tip because it’s easier math and it incentivizes me not to patronize such businesses. (I only go with friends and I never make the suggestion.) Just saying that because I disagree with this perspective; do go to these restaurants and don’t tip if that is your choice.

Tipping used to be a gratuity. It’s a way to say, “Your effort was exceptional and I want to show you how grateful I am for it.” Tips are no longer exceptions, nor gratuitous: they have become an obligation, as you say. I reject this; I am not responsible for the wage of someone I did not hire. I’m not even responsible for the success of the business, except that I owe them what I agreed to pay when I ordered. It’s like every restaurant prices their menu incorrectly and they expect their customers to correct them.

(There is a Prisoner’s Dilemma for the restaurants: if I start paying my staff well, I have to raise (advertised) prices but people still think tipping is necessary so they’ll see my increased prices in that context and be more likely to go to one of my competitors. I don’t mean to say restaurant owners have an easy out, just that the answer to patronize these businesses regularly, while also tipping generously, perpetuates the situation.)

Is it wrong for someone to order carryout from such a full-service restaurant and not tip? If so, what would they be tipping for? If not, how does the wait staff get paid from the order when they’re primarily paid with tips?

There is a restaurant I ate at recently that applied an automatic 20% gratuity to the bill instead of requiring a tip, which I liked because it didn’t require math on my part.

It’s not quite “the price you see is the price you pay” but it’s progress.

Agreed. I’ve experienced similar things with large groups at some restaurants and it was welcome if for no reason other than it being an improvement. I’d only caveat that they should to be upfront about it to avoid accidental double tips.

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