It's fine for me if y'all decide that's the course to take, y'all voted for this after all, but here in Europe, we prefer doing things the right way.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tesla_Autopilot_crashe...
And we can (and do) make our cities safer to reduce road fatalities and injuries... Germany for example, even though it has Autobahns with unlimited speed, has about ~2800 fatalities per year on a population of about 84 million people. The Netherlands have ~700 road fatalities a year on 18 million people. The US in contrast has ~40.000 fatalities on a population of 340 million - about 4 times the fatality rate of Germany and the Netherlands.
And yes, I am comparing based on populations because the availability of decent public transport is key in reducing vehicular accidents.
Because there are companies like Tesla that keep putting up cars with inadequate technology (cameras instead of LIDAR/radar) or testing on the road and people die as a result of this penny pinching, but no one at Tesla got punished in any way or form for this decision.
On top of that we got the way over the top marketing claims, which routinely leads to one scenario: Tesla drivers engaging the autopilot and playing games on their phones, followed by the autopilot either unable to detect a dangerous situation or disengage once the crash becomes inevitable so it doesn't get counted as an Autopilot incident [1].
At this point, it is willful negligence but we don't have a way to hold Tesla accountable. That is why I want to see high-ranking executives, up to and including its CEO, be held on trial for manslaughter at least.
And hell even here in Europe, Tesla's garbage on wheels causes issues. Both in Germany [2] and Sweden [3] we have had drivers fall asleep for minutes while Autopilot was engaged. This kind of crap was promised to not happen, but apparently someone at Tesla fucked that up. I'm amazed that Autopilot has held up and prevented either driver from actually crashing into something, but the failure of engaging safety mode and come to a safe stop if the driver becomes inattentive for whatever reason is inacceptable, period.
And it's not just Tesla that fails to deal with the damages their shit technology causes. Remember Waymo's honking incidents that went on for weeks [4]? At a minimum, this shit should have led to a) immediate cessation of operation, b) damages being paid to the neighbors who got hit by this noise and c) to a fully transparent audit which uncovers why that happened and what steps were made to prevent a reoccurence.
I'm sick and tired of multi-billion dollar megacorporations using the general populace as a free testbed for their crap instead of doing the proper thing that everyone else does - test on closed-off roads and dedicated test tracks.
[1] https://electrek.co/2025/03/17/tesla-fans-exposes-shadiness-...
[2] https://news.sky.com/story/police-in-germany-chase-tesla-for...
[3] https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/sleeping-tesla-driver-crui...
[4] https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/11/24218134/waymo-parking-lo...
As said: when a human kills or maims someone with a car, that human gets consequences to feel. When a corporation does the same, they have to pay pittances and that's it. This cannot stand any longer.
Would you simultaneously prefer being able to accuse someone who is involved in a car fatality of being a murderer for being basically stupid and careless (like almost everyone is once in a while) and unlucky at the same time, when different technology (autonomous driving) likely would have prevented the accident in the first place?
That's about the kind of claim you would expect from someone openly claiming connections with Antifa.
Intentions (especially those projected by some onto others) don't matter much -- it's the result, the numbers (here, fatalities) that make all the difference.
You did notice that I singled out Tesla and Waymo here, correct? BMW for example does stuff the right way - they opened a dedicated test track in 2023 [1] instead of developing on the open road, Volkswagen does their testing with a human safety driver behind the wheel [2], and Mercedes had their Level 3 system actually certified and audited, a worldwide first by the way [3].
I don't have anything against autonomous vehicles, in fact I believe they are a vital solution to providing individual mobility in rural areas that can't ever be economically served by public transport.
All I want is that companies don't outsource costs to society at large. Mercedes, BMW and Volkswagen do this, Waymo and Tesla don't. They just do whatever they want, zero considerations and zero effort, while our industry does things by the book and has more expenses as a result.
> That's about the kind of claim you would expect from someone openly claiming connections with Antifa.
That's a low blow, you know it, and you also know it's against HN rules.
[1] https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/deutschland/article/detail/T0...
[2] https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/hamburg-volkswagen-teste...
[3] https://www.tuv.com/presse/de/meldungen/automatisches-spurha...
Yes I did notice, and do the numbers and results that we are talking about not apply to them? Do you have more ammunition to continue to use the term free-to-kill, or want to consider if the use of the term may be a bit ideology laden?
They do but still I'm not willing to give these two multi-billion dollar megacorps a hall pass for penny pinching with deadly results when our car industry shows that better ways of doing things exist.
Not everything needs to be done by the typical Silicon Valley strategy of "move fast, break things" - especially not when the things being broken are literal human lives.
Calling Teslas garbage on wheels doesn't help either, when the accident and defect statistics seem to indicate otherwise. Not a Tesla fanboy by the way, but the discussion around Tesla seems to me to be unfair especially in certain circles.
Uh, Tesla routinely has people wait for months for spare parts [1]. Bad logistics, okay, excusable for a company just a year or two in business, but Tesla is in for well over a decade now. That's also a contributor in why Tesla vehicles cost significantly more to insure [2], with reports of carriers refusing Tesla vehicles at all cropping up even a year ago [3], and all models being listed as "difficult to insure" in NYC [4]. In Germany, the situation appears to be similar, with serious premiums compared to other cars [5]. And that's all before thinking about the current wave of politically motivated vandalism - say some idiot bashes in a window, good luck getting a replacement in time, not to mention the insurance premium hike that's inevitable after filing a claim.
As for defects, well, the build quality of the Cybertruck is so much a meme at this point that I won't waste time researching on it. Steel sheets literally falling off the vehicle. The bloody thing turning rusty from ordinary rain. No matter what, that's inacceptable.
> Not a Tesla fanboy by the way, but the discussion around Tesla seems to me to be unfair especially in certain circles.
It's not like the criticism isn't well founded in facts. The decision of forgoing LIDAR (by Musk himself, who called LIDAR a "crutch" [6]) has been debated for years, the constant overpromises and underdeliveries led to a multitude of legal issues and SEC trouble, so did the various other issues surrounding lemon laws, general build quality and spare parts availability that I've linked before. And there's a shocking report of someone claiming to be a Tesla IT insider from 2018 that details very shoddy IT practices [7].
And that's before getting to the Cybertruck which is such a dangerous design that it's deemed unsafe to drive on European roads (with the "workarounds" some people found [8] being under serious questioning) or the completely deranged actions of its leader of the last month.
[1] https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/tesla-owners-stuck-waiting...
[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-...
[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/18yrag1/why_ar...
[4] https://www.dfs.ny.gov/consumers/auto_insurance/difficult-to...
[5] https://tff-forum.de/t/versicherung-fuer-tesla-extrem-teuer/...
[6] https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...
[7] https://x.com/atomicthumbs/status/1032939617404645376
[8] https://efahrer.chip.de/news/tesla-fan-sichert-sich-eu-zulas...
We could, but we don't anyway.
Look at the pathetic sentences for driving on drugs or without insurance, etc.
Automation is safer and better.
It's cars that are the problem. Who or what is driving them is a distraction.
Where I live (south germany), for many trips that we can agree are kind of necessary (e.g. daily commute to work), trains can take 4-5x more time. There are other places where it's probably much worse.
There are other reasons why trains are not a replacement, for example cargo. Are you taking home your new cupboard, sofa, or fridge, on a train?
But also the less urban areas... Landshut? Everything well accessible with a bike, get a trailer and you can move around pretty much everything including a Bierbank and a whole ass grill setup - just a day or two ago, someone legitimately posted a photo of themselves, a cargo bike and a full size fridge. During the day, public transit with buses covers even the tiny villages around Landshut, despite the LAVV actually being ranked among the worst public transit systems in Germany.
> Are you taking home your new cupboard, sofa, or fridge, on a train?
For these cases get them delivered and hauled by professionals. That's how my wife and I dealt with our new sofas, IKEA charged something around 100€, or Saturn 40€ for our new dryer - a bargain, compared to having to haul that shit on our own.
I got all of that used either from friends and family, or from kleinanzeigen.de (that's like Craigslist I think). We saved thousands of euros by getting used quality things, instead of new, possibly poor quality, IKEA items. And we did good for sustainability.. But that was only possible by doing spontaneous 5-20km car rides. For the sim-racing rig, driving a bit farther was necessary.
I also went to the hardware store, which is inconvenient to reach by public transport, more than a couple of times.
I don't see how I would have been able to be spontaneous and cheap like that, without a car, or even with a car that wasn't my own.
If you don't have a car, you're going to have a different life. You will make different compromises. You're not going to live in certain places. You're not going to take certain jobs. You might not visit some of your friends and family as often. You might buy new things just because they will be delivered straight to your home (having someone else drive the car).
Of course your life won't end, you might even enjoy it. But you're not _replacing_ the car by a train in many cases. You're just not doing things that you would otherwise do, and some of these will be done, possibly _need_ to be done, by other people instead.
I still take the bike or train when I can, and I like to walk to places within walking distance -- even 30-60 minutes if I have the time. Admittedly, sometimes I take the car instead of public transport only because it's a little bit cheaper or a little more convenient.
I do use city-wide public transport once in a while, but I don't own a monthly public transport ticket because it probably wouldn't pay off since I have a bicycle and a car. A single-trip public transport ticket for 10 minutes is around 3 Euros. If I need to get somewhere quickly (and back) and take the dog (which isn't free), that's closer to 10 Euros. IMO public transport shouldn't advantage the daily users as much in terms of cost (say 60 Euros/month even for people who may use it > 50 times a month), because it prevents adoption.
Yeah, but you don't need your own car for such things. In Landshut for example, there's a car sharing association, and if we would need to go on such a ride we could just rent a car from them, there's always at least five of them available. And on top of that: a move is like what, a once in a decade event?
A car is hundreds of euros a month (the cost of the car itself / depreciation, maintenance, fuel, replacement parts, insurance, rent for a garage plus of course the fuel). It's an incredible waste of money to own a car if all you're realistically using it is once a year for a trip to Italy and once a year to haul some furniture.
The hardcore "car brains" are the worst - so many people who own a car spec it to the demands of their once-a-year vacation trip (and massively overpay as a result) when a cheap Dacia Spring (~17k new) would be more than enough for their daily demands and they could just go and rent a large car for the vacation trip.
Driving like at least 20 times alone would have cost me what, maybe 1000 bucks? Ignoring all the other trouble that makes it less spontaneous.
Also, those cars specifically aren't the right size to transport furniture in the first place. I also can't wear them down like my own car.
> a move is like what, a once in a decade event?
Depends, but there are other situations where you want to move things.
> A car is hundreds of euros a month (the cost of the car itself / depreciation, maintenance, fuel, replacement parts, insurance, rent for a garage plus of course the fuel). It's an incredible waste of money to own a car if all you're realistically using it is once a year for a trip to Italy and once a year to haul some furniture.
Our car is a relatively cheap one, probably 150-200 euros a month all in (about 50 Euros/month for fuel, 50 Euros/month insurance and taxes, about 3500 Euros for buying and maintenance in 3.5 years, you can expect the average cost of ownership here to go down if we hold it for another couple years). Apart from commute (2x/week), we use it 1-2x per week on average. Plus, we can use it for holidays and other trips.
For the basic person-transport needs we could probably use Car Sharing cars if we need it less than 5 times per month (we need it more), but it would be less ergonomic.