Hacker News Reader

Comment by ThrowawayR2 | Hacker News Reader

Lawyers have law school after a degree, a bar exam, legal liability for malpractice, and ongoing licensing requirements.

Medicine has medical school after a degree, a 5+ year residency under close supervision with significant failure rates, legal liability for malpractice, and ongoing licensing requirements.

So explain to us what it is that you "know this for a fact" regarding how they have it easier. Most of the people reading this, myself included, would never have been allowed into this industry, let alone been allowed to stay in it, if the bar were as high as law or medicine.

View on HN

The difference is that if you fail medicine, it’s ok (it’s hard). But if you fail to get a job because of the stupid “async queue” author’s problem, well, that’s depressing.

I'm not so sure. Failing your residency means your medical career is basically done, and you have to basically start a new career from scratch in your late 20s. Chances are you'll have debt from not just undergrad but also med school.

By comparison, failing a leetcode interview means you've got to find a new company to interview with.

How's failing medicine not depressing!

failing medicine is depressing in the original sense of giving personal depression, failing stupid leetcode and not getting job is depressing in the more modern sense of the world is stupid and not well-organized.

That's like, your opinion. Any argument you can make for leetcode, one can make on the medical certification exam as well.

I know its not a popular opinion here or elsewhere, but since these interviews are so standard, why don't we have a uniform standard body where I can get a licensure, do yearly trainings etc as a software engineer? It would solve the same problem something like the CPA exam does.

For the same reason we have 2137 libraries, frameworks and languages that do the same thing - because everyone thinks they can do it better.

I don't think the reason we have so many libraries / frameworks is the same line of reasoning that hiring is copy pasta throughout the industry

I think we do with OMSCS.

Perhaps the bar should be as high as law and medicine if we want people to take our industry just as seriously.

Nope. In my opinion Wild West in software is much preferred model. If one wants to create software and sell it there should be no barriers. It is one of the the very few fields that give chance to simple people with no money to break out and live decent life.

Just make sure to save up before ageism kicks in.

Tbh I think it depends on the domain you are coding for. The field is so diverse across many different parts of the economy. E-Commerce web app sure go for your life -> software for controlling some life support system... yeah maybe I want someone with qualifications and audited standards thanks.

>"software for controlling some life support system..."

I believe there are processes to ensure this kind of software is safe (obviously to a degree).

Sure. But audits/processes only catch up to a point. In the end the buck stops with a professional. That's what most "professions" are. They aren't just a service -> they are an accreditation with some recourse which gives them prestige/social status/etc if they have years of experience (i.e. despite the risk imposed on them as a professional they have survived/thrived).

>"In the end the buck stops with a professional."

Where did you get the idea that "professionals" do not fuck up. They do it just as much as mere mortals.

Life support and controls system should absolutely have a high standard, but even E-Commerce should have a decent bar. If you're handling my money I expect you to be an adult.

I develop software for various areas. The ones that come anywhere close to regulated areas surely gets audited.

Its not common that people in our industry don't have bachelor degrees anymore. Its also not an industry where I routinely find the majority of people come from lower economic backgrounds etc.

I think a fair compromise would be not to require specific degrees to test, but rather a service fee (which could be sponsored) but I think a similar rigorous standards based exam would do wonders for our industry, even if it trims who can enter it on the margins

What would be on such an exam? Pseudocode, logic puzzles?

Certainly not specifics on any particular technology, right?

those generic screener questions aren't technology specific. Data structures, algorithms, system design (the top 3 that show up in interviews), none of which are technology specific.

Throw in best practices like TDD, code security, and architectural patterns and I think you could hit all of the most common non technology specific domains that cover it

>"Its not common that people in our industry don't have bachelor degrees anymore. Its also not an industry where I routinely find the majority of people come from lower economic backgrounds etc."

It does not matter what you "routinely find". Live and let live. Person has an inherent right to make living however they see fit unless it actively harms others.

If you are so concerned about degrees why not to start with the one of a "decent human" and require it from politicians. Those fuckers affect us way more than any software and and mostly walk free no matter haw badly they fuck someone's life

because our industry would improve massively if we actually removed a barrier to allowing standardized licensure

I also never said it should be held behind a degree, instead I said a fee, which could be sponsored. No degree required, though one certainly would help I imagine.

We live in a society, and we should think beyond the individual in terms of benefits. This would be a big win for society.

>"because our industry would improve massively if we actually removed a barrier to allowing standardized licensure"

I call BS on that but each one of course is entitled to their own opinion. Go get your license if you don't have one already.

>"..instead I said a fee, which could be sponsored. No degree required, though one certainly would help I imagine."

We have enough mafia type bloodsuckers. My take on those money collectors: go fuck yourselves.

>"We live in a society, and we should think beyond the individual in terms of benefits. This would be a big win for society."

And who would be thinking? Our masters looking to squeeze yet more money from people? Enough of that "won't anyone think of children" vomit.

Your attitude is completely off-base. Would you get treated by a doctor who was not recognized by the AMA? Would you hire a lawyer who was not called to the bar, or an accountant who was not chartered or equivalent?

Yet somehow a high school education is sufficient to write software for a 4000 lbs vehicle moving at 60 mph.

>"Yet somehow a high school education is sufficient to write software for a 4000 lbs vehicle moving at 60 mph."

Cut the BS please. Safety critical software gets audited and other measures are taken to insure it stays safe to a degree. However if one wants to write software for let's say music synthesizer the only thing that matter is the person ability. In this case I would look for experience, list of completed projects and other relevant info. I would not give a rat's ass about their diploma. Some of the best / successful software was often created by domain experts who learned how to program.

> Cut the BS please. Safety critical software gets audited and other measures are taken to insure it stays safe to a degree.

Oh? BS is it? Pray tell who's auditing Tesla's software? Or Waymo's for that matter?

I am sure Tesla can show you all the licenses and creds you'll ever need

Many people in software have passed through similarly hard gates in the past. An engineering degree is harder to attain than a law degree for instance. The question isn't about these gates, it is about the interview practice once one is already through. Do law or medical interviews include questions unrelated to the work that they do in a reasonably analogous manner to leetcode? Maybe they do. Perhaps hiring is broken in all fields.

> Many people in software have passed through similarly hard gates in the past.

I didn't. I dropped out of school to work at my first job. That's different from a doctor, nurse, lawyer, CPA or PE who have to meet an industry standard.

Right, certification gate keeping doesn't exist for software. I have an engineering stamp but never got a chance to use it.

The problem is, an engineering stamp or comp sci degree doesn't seem to be particularly predictive of dev capability.

to put it another way there isn’t this much focus on show me you know this weird problem that I’ve been studying for 5 years as well me, your 5 min timer starts now

Oh yeah. Spoke quite a bit to a doctor who wanted to get into a speciality last year. That shits hard. Intersection of mentally hard, hours demanding and high bars to entry.

We have it cushy. Really cushy. Unless you are working for a 2025 AI startup that works and pays you like a mule and uses the word mission unironically.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com