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Comment by ethagnawl | Hacker News Reader

I'm currently driving a rental which has this feature and I can't stand it. There is no added value and this feature exists solely to appeal to people who think it's "cool". (They must exist, right?) I guess you get used to it with time but I find myself constantly having to throw the key back into the car so I can do things like exit momentarily and keep the air conditioning going. I also don't trust that the car won't then lock itself with the key and my child inside, so I also have to remember to roll down the window.

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Unwarranted worries. I keep the fob in my pocket all the time, the car will keep running without the fob. Also usually these systems have incar fob detection. Mine will refuse to lock if it senses the fob is inside the car.

That doesn’t make sense. You can’t lock the car if your key is inside?

So a bad person can just open your door and attack you because you can’t lock your door when your key is inside?

My Camry has incar fob detection and I can definitely lock the car while the fob is inside.

I meant lock the car from the outside, using the door handle.

Thanks for the clarification. Wild to me I didn't know this external lock button was a thing (my car's 16 years old... but I drive a rental a couple times/year...).

It won't let you press the button on the handle to lock it if the key is inside and you're not, prevents you from locking the keys in the car, mine does the same, the car will beep 3 times if I try to lock it from outside while the key is inside.

If you're also inside, you just press the lock button in the car and it'll lock just fine.

There's a huge value feature, I can keep the "key" in my pocket or bag or whatever and I don't have to fetch it out. Plus the "key" can be a phone or other device.

Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure.

> Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure.

Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car. Keyless ignition means criminals have a vastly larger recruitment pool of people they can offer money to do something stupid (like stealing a car for them).

> Everyone can use a flipper zero to unlock a car. Not everyone can hotwire a car.

You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case. Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill of an attack than a cryptographic attack. Recent car theft epidemics have shown this, e.g. #kiaboys

> You live in a tech bubble if you really think this is the case

Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a custom firmware which provides a three step process:

* Select car make. * Press button A to unlock doors. * Press button B to start car.

> Attacking a lock cylinder is a lot lower-skill

All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser. It's even mandatory in some countries since about 2000 [1]. Meaning the key "talks" to the car when you turn it in the lock cylinder. Locking picking the lock or hot-wiring the car isn't going to start the car. And that's not even taking into account the car alarm will go off if you just lock pick a lock on it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser

In the grand scheme of things, very few people have flipper zeros. Few even know what they are.

Meanwhile, I think a pretty high percentage of households have a screwdriver.

> All "recent" cars (as in everything from about 2000 and up) have an immobiliser

You mean some kind of wireless communication protocol that can be hacked with some kind of handheld SDR device? Why is a keyless entry trivially bypassed but an immobilizer transponder, gee, that's just impossible to hack.

Everyone can operate a flipper zero with a cusom firmware which could bypass a transponder. So then all you need is the flipper zero and a screwdriver. Wow such better security for the hassle of having to actually stick the key in the hole every time.

I'll still take the keyless option. If someone really wants in my car, they're getting in. If they really want to steal it, they'll steal it. Requiring the thief to have an RF hacking tool and a screwdriver just isn't that much higher security in the end IMO.

Automotive ignitions barring a few stupid setups in the 90s like the Jeep XJ (which was laughably easy to steal, but it was Chrysler and AMC so you can just expect certain levels of incompetence and shit design) have been much more than just a simple cut key. Going back to even the 80s, GM had a mostly excellent simple theft deterrent in the keys (a special resistor whose value the ECM knew, called passkeys) that made it harder than just brute forcing the ignition cylinder. It honestly made stealing someone's thirdgen or corvette a lot harder. Keys with things like fobs have evolved since and on a car with a real key made since the vast majority of this sites userbase was probably born is going to take some real specific smarts and work if you need both a physical key and whatever additional security the manufacturer has cooked into the fob. You really need an immobilizer system that requires both a transponder and a correct cut key for the security on the car to be decent.

Tumblers can be trivially bypassed or broken. The only thing providing real security in your examples are the transponders. The cut keys are worthless.

If you get rid of the transponder, it has weak security. If you get rid of the cut key, you have pretty much the same security.

>> throw the key back into the car so I can do things

Isn't it the same for old style key, but with even more actions? Like to navigate a keyhole, turn the key...

It’s convenient. If I want to keep the AC on when I exit, I push the button for that before I get out.

It’s especially nice when the key is my phone. I never have to worry about keys. I just get in my car and drive, and when I arrive I get out. I keep a key card in my wallet as a backup in case my phone explodes.

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