Comment by potatolicious | Hacker News Reader

Comment by potatolicious | Hacker News Reader

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> "Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money."

Just from my own circles - $125-150K base, with additional equity/bonuses on top, in NYC, for a bunch of nerds only 1-3 years out of undergrad. The range is similar in SF/SV. This is astronomical by "pretty decent" Toronto standards.

IMO the notion that NYC/SF/SV compensation eats Canadian salaries for lunch is not really that controversial nor ambiguous. I am easily earning over 2x what I would pull off in Toronto, or Montreal, or Vancouver.

[edit] There's an additional point of on top of this: Canada has essentially no major innovative software institutions. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, et al act as anchors in their respective communities and their influence can't be discounted.

They attract talented people who actually give a hoot about the impact of the things they work on, and provide a talent pool for startups to draw from. They also act as a cushion against the risks of startup-dom, as most capable engineers have a (very decent) plan B.

The equation in the US often works out like "I can go work on a nimble team doing really cool stuff that impacts real people and possibly get rich. Even if we fail, I walk back into a 6-figure job working on really cool stuff still." - this has a tremendous impact on the startup scene, and simply does not exist at all in Canada.

The amazing thing about T.O. is that the cost of living is a lot less so in practice you will have a lot more disposable income here in Canada.

Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and have a roommate. I can't imagine what it's like in NYC.

Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US.

Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Who's heard of a guy 3 years out of undergrad making $110K in Toronto?!

110k 3 years out of college is very rare in NYC as well.

EDIT: It is certainly not unheard of, but only for top graduates. Also, I see you were talking about equivalent 110k salary in Toronto which would be 130-140k in New York. This is a high base salary by any standard.

I'm certainly not a top graduate - I eked out of university with a 72% average. Neither are the other Canadian expats I know who are pulling this kind of cash - all are smart and hard-working, but none were among the top of their classes.

$110K 3 years out of college, at least in the current climate, is not at all uncommon in either NYC or SF/SV. It is not universal, but it's not rare either. If you look at the major investment banks, the institutional tech companies (see: Google), and the startups in NYC, this is the going rate for a mid-level engineer (i.e., $100-140K base). Hell, I have trouble finding fresh undergrads starting below $90K in these areas.

The point is, someone who is skilled at programming right now and has a few years of experience under their belt can very well pull at least $120K base, and even adjusting for cost of living differences, that's a hell of a lot more money than you can get in Canada.

In any case, this somewhat distracts from the point - it's not just about money. Myself and many other Canadian expats do not feel we can go back to Canada without working for the likes of SAP, IBM, TD, Royal, or any of the vast number of institutional enterprise companies that pound out rote, uninteresting code. There are some companies in Canada doing interesting work, but they are few and far between, demand for these jobs is intense, and job security sucks (after all, what incentive is there to treat you well when the employer knows they're the only interesting game in town?).

Compare with the SF/SV/NYC/SEA, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a row of innovative, interesting tech companies doing interesting things. We are hacking on interesting, immensely impactful things here, and we enjoy tremendous respect and security - after all, if management starts screwing around you hop down the street and go do something else that's interesting. The Canadian landscape looks incredibly bleak in comparison - a small handful of elite shops that everyone's clamoring to work for, and a vast tundra of code sweatshops where the problems are as uninteresting as the salary.

My view is that "institutional" companies are starting to do innovative things with modern technology (NoSQL, Cloud, Mobility, etc.), but it requires younger people to seek out the opportunity to change these companies from within. There's a big wave of IT retirement coming over the next 5 to 7 years as the old guard dies out and the open source generation comes of age. Given the absolutely astronomical amounts of money these companies are used to paying for the equivalent of "three programmers , 2 weeks, and a case of beer" work, there's a lot of money to be made.

The challenge of course is politics, but that exists everywhere - Google has its own flavor (good luck using anything but Python, C, or Java, for example). Startups certainly have less politics, but just tend to be intensely personal affairs that revolve tremendously around the founder's personality and value system. Plus they tend to require commitments above and beyond what people that want families are able to provide. Large companies provide a much higher probability that you can have huge impact on people's day to day lives within a 5 year period, in my opinion - if you land the right project, with good management.

No question that people in their 20's should try a startup gig -- I moved to SF and NYC myself at ages 20 and 22, respectively (I dropped out to do it), and don't regret it. I even made a run back to SF at age 30 to try a startup again, this time as an executive (it failed). But I'm making more money now in IT because startups taught me how to get things done, which is an insight in very short supply in most large companies.

On the other hand, I haven't seen too many high-end SAP technical jobs that were "rote"... soul-sucking, sure, as you're working for the man, but still requiring a lot of brain power. I refuse to do it because I find more pleasure in torturing SAP consultants than joining them.

So how exactly would you recommend going about finding a programming job in the U.S? Are there any resources you found particularly useful given that I have no connections, little knowledge of the job market, and respectable (but no niche or outstanding side projects, mediocore GPA, etc.) skills that would render me invisible in the eyes of "top" employers like Google?

I've heard so much about how the grass is greener on the other side but it is not so easy for some of us to join in on the action. I have a bachelors in CS and two years of Canadian experience under the belt.

For example I've found indeed.ca to be very useful for locating job openings in most Canadian cities and http://www.grasmick.com/ was recommended to me by some expats.

Recruiters may be your best way to get your foot in the door. Once you're here the jobs seems to find themselves - tech events, meetups, and other events will quickly build a network, and at least for now, you'd never want for a job.

First things first: get a LinkedIn profile if you don't have one already. Spruce it up, keyword it straight to hell - name drop pretty much every technology, field, and subfield you have substantial experience in. Almost all recruiters rely heavily (some would say exclusively) on LinkedIn for discovery, make sure you're positioned to show up in their searches.

Secondly, if you have friends in the Bay Area, Seattle, or NYC, they're probably being contacted daily by recruiters - tell them to send some your way. US recruiters may not be actively seeking out Canadians, but if a qualified one lands on their doorsteps I'm certain they would be pleased.

I have a recruiter I've worked with in the past I'm happy with (disclosure: I don't get any kickbacks or anything), if you want to contact me privately we can see if there's a fit there (email in my profile).

I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it later once I have done my due diligence.

In case you are curious the situation here in Calgary (not a tech hub by any definition) is entirely different. The recruiters use similar tactics but the pool of working professionals is rather limited so you quickly develop a reputation. Sometimes you get the feeling that the it's the same players shuffling around a dozen employers.

The economics however are completely different because imo job opportunities are very limited. The base salaries you are describing for a recent grad (or American mid-senior level developer) are on par with middle management with approximately 15 years of experience.... So from a financial perspective it's really a no brainer many of peers who can leave are long gone. It's rather depressing but I almost feel like the Canadian education system is a farm team for American software companies.

All the companies you are mentioning are very hard to get into for an average guy without connections. Also, it is university and your network that matters, not your place in class.

It's not that uncommon to pull $100k+ if you're solid with co-op background. 5 years out of undergrad I was in the $145k base range (more with bonus).

The real trick in Canada (especially smaller markets like Calgary) is to be an independent contractor... talented guys pull in $95-110 per hour (minus 10-15% if you need a broker), $150-175 per hour or more if you're in a specialty with big demand. HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth.

What kind of company do you work for? Which "broker" do you recommend, if any?

I'm independent, with my own company; my current long term client is in transportation.

Many brokers (i.e. corporations that handle administrative matters for you as an independent, such as liability or E&O insurance, invoicing & payment, etc.) are regional. The ones I deal with are in Western Canada these days, such as SI Systems, Brightspot, Inti Solutions, or Quadrus.

I agree, contract work is where you can make more money.

"HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth." You are referring to full-time work right?

Yes, full time work. HR departments rarely get involved with contract rates, they'd have a heart attack after their first SAP project.

Meh, Vancouver is significantly more expensive than seattle, and only a bit cheaper than the Bay Area. You can have similar wages in seattle as you would in the bay and pay half for your rent, less in taxes, less in car costs, food & shopping. And you'll still be close to family if you grew up in BC. If you want to live cheap, go live in the east bay. In vancouver, not so much.

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