Ask HN: Python / Django Workflow, and choosing an OS | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Python / Django Workflow, and choosing an OS

2 pointsFireBeyond9 comments

I'm trying to transition my work world from one of PHP and possibly the world's ugliest Zend Framework code (which is not necessarily a dig at ZF, but horrific development practices, reactive testing, and 'debug in production') to something a lot more organized and streamlined, with Python and Django (both of which I'm fairly new at, though experienced as a web developer, albeit PHP).

I would like to get some input. Try as I may, my mind just doesn't sit well with OS X - I keep trying it, and find my brain likes 'structure and discipline' and feels chaotic with windows at "random" locations all over my desktop. I like the Unix/BSD underbelly, but still. Maybe there are methodologies that can help?

I'm really debating whether to go back to Windows, or retry Ubuntu. What holds me back from Ubuntu is the Office suite (I know the arguments), and GoToMeeting (absolutely mandatory at this point - I telecommute, and it's our annointed method of desktop sharing).

But what I'm really trying to iron out is a workflow for developing, testing, deployment. I'd like to get something set up with tools like LXC for virtualizing a production environment (currently on a separate machine). I'm not really looking for any comments of the lines of "Why Django?" - you're solving the wrong problem. Instead, offer me insight on how I can streamline a workflow from conception to delivery and beyond.

I currently use PyCharm and Sublime Text 2, and am very happy with these, though I'm not averse to hearing compelling arguments (rather than religious wars) on alternatives (as much as I see, and admire the vim-elite, I'm not sure I can make that me).

A relatively common OS X based workflow for Ruby development (which could equally apply to Python) is mostly terminal based.

Use a full screen terminal and a multiplexer (screen, tmux) or a tiling window manager (dvtm) to make use of the full screen; emacs or vim as an editor of choice (ease yourself in if unfamiliar, don't go all-in right off the bat); and Unix itself as a development tool for everything else. While you may initially think a plethora of GUI apps is better, your growing experience will slowly but surely push you away from that.

Within the terminal session you are then exposed to tools other people have written that help you handle deployment, testing, continuous integration, etc.

If the CLI is too much for you, OSX has a number of apps that help organise windows (Moom, TylerWM, Divvy), so you can try and keep that under control in any case.

The terminal is definitely your best friend in OSX or Linux, though, and understanding that environment, especially moving away from PHP, has few, if any, disadvantages.

Thanks for the heads up - I'm comfortable in the CLI, I like Sublime admittedly, as I do PyCharm (but I understand the nuances of being able to become self-sufficient outside an IDE), had never really considered a tiling WM, but watching Tyler's intro was enlightening - I might have to try it out - I've used Divvy, and it seemed to solve part of my problem.

I'm not sure this is an answer for you, as you ask for "tools like LXC for virtualizing a production environment", but have you looked at Vagrant? I don't use OS X myself, but AFAIK it should work fine on OS X, see eg:

  "Django project deployment with vagrant and fabric"
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3-MNsowgHc

and maybe:

  https://github.com/simeonwillbanks/vagrant-up-django-app-server

As for "vim-elite" -- that really isn't what vim is about at all -- I recommend having a look at:

  "7 Habits For Effective Text Editing 2.0"
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9m3g5J-XA

As for window management on OS X -- again, I don't really use OS X -- but maybe something like:

  http://lifeoutthewindow.com/2012/04/divvy/

can help?

edit: Added titles for video links, additional vagrant link.

Definitely looked at a few virtualization options (we use Citrix XenServer at work), but my rationale for LXC was making the most use of limited hardware (rather than being forced to commit, say, 2GB for VM A, 2 for VM B, and so on, instead having up to the full server resources available - this isn't strictly the "best practice" for a mock production environment but will suffice).

"vim elite" may not have been the best phrasing - my intent wasn't to imply superiority and condescension, merely "text editor power user".

Divvy is a nice tool, which I do use, and does make life a little easier, and if my preference deep down is that of a largely maximized world and Windows, so be it.

I do really want to investigate Vagrant, and will check out your links, cheers!

Ah, I didn't think you'd be interested in LXC as I thought you'd be running your VMs under OS X?

If you're considering running VirtualBox (Vagrant) under Linux/Solaris, VirtualBox does support a limited form of overcommitting RAM (not under OS X, however):

  https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch04.html#idp18673360

I believe you can use this with Vagrant via:

  http://vagrantup.com/v1/docs/config/vm/customize.html

You still have to dedicate RAM to VirtualBox -- but you no longer have to dedicate it to each VM.

If you are already using Citrix, the Xen Server product has supported a limited form of overcommit since version 5.6:

  http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX124972

I would think spending time automating deployment to the same environment as you use for production would be better than having a separate technology for development? I don't know what your internal politics are like, but setting up a dedicated server with a few tens of gigs of RAM for development and testing should be a worthwhile investment -- and running the same software there as in production should be good both for knowledge transfer and avoiding surprises going from testing to production (and vice versa).

Finally, I've been a impressed with vmware's new open source project, CloudFoundry.com/.org -- if not so impressed with their documentation for the free/open version. Apparently you can use that with VirtualBox as well:

  http://matschaffer.com/2011/04/cloudfoundry-virtualbox/

Note that Vagrant is in the process of being refactored with the goal of adding support for other hosts than just VirtualBox in the (relatively) near future.

There are advantages to a Unix-like OS for web development. When I was working with Django I switched from Windows to an Ubuntu VM. That was a few years ago, though. Nowadays Python and Django on Windows (and even on the Azure platform[1]) are fully supported by Microsoft. Since you want something different from OS X and you want Office and other apps, I suggest you try Windows. You can still use Sublime, git, and many other tools.

[1] https://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/develop/python/

Linux & pycharm work perfectly for me.

Pycharm support for python/django is just the best.

For stuff like git I still prefer the command line and vim for editing isolated files either locally or via ssh.

For the microsoft word stuff I use google drive, if I really need something on the windows side (seriously it happens to me once every 3 months for updating my tomtom) I start a virtualbox with a minimal windows XP in it. The virtualbox desktop integration mode is excellent.

My only issue with "needing Windows or OSX" is that we do a lot of collaboration, which I can't argue out of GoToMeeting (which doesn't run on Linux), and I don't want to have to maintain a separate VM to mimic my development environment merely for these times (I realize, too, that I'm optimizing for a highly specific set of circumstances, here!) - were it just Office, or one or two tools, I'd be happy with Linux, and an XP VM.

I'm using ubuntu. I am a big windows fan but python on windows is really frustrating at times.

I like eclipse + pydev, and with other monitors I have my tests running.

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