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Comment by andrewjf | Hacker News Reader

I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish I had a better experience.

Any recommendations?

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Muscle memory is exactly what it sounds like, you need more repetition. If you are becoming frustrated, you can try to reduce your cognitive load. ZSA has an app for all platforms called "Keymapp". It's primarily used for flashing firmware but shows the key assignments in real time. I use only 1 monitor but I've repurposed my laptop screen to always display keymapp so I can see which key/layer has the symbol I am looking for when I don't have the mental capacity to remember.

The default layers are pretty good, but I found programming the keys/layers to what made sense to me to be more beneficial. I use the heat map to see which keys get the most milage and program layers around that. Then I only program a few new keys at a time and get a feel for things. My words-per-minute went down initially but now it is back.

I have been tweaking my layout for about a month and am close to being happy with it. I've set myself a milestone that when I don't make any tweaks for 6 months I will buy custom keycaps that have my exact symbols/layers on each key.

I didn't like the default layouts for symbols either and wound up building this layout[1] (there have been a few minor tweaks since but nothing substantial). The parens as double taps on the shift keys is the big one for me for writing code. The other brackets on the inside are convenient enough to use but not occupying "prime" space, and I have "auto-shift" enabled so a top on "[" give that character, but holding it down (for > 160ms) gives "{" (and same for all the other keys and their respective shifted versions. And in case it isn't clear what's going on in the thumb clusters, the two enter keys and the space key do their respective actions on tap, and do Left CTRL, ALT or Right CTRL respectively when held down. Might be a place to start if you wanted to try again.

Also on the "muscle memory" thing, I decided early on to not try to modify any other keyboards in my life. Just the ergodox get the middlemak and super custom layout. I found that preserves muscle memory for laptop built in keyboards and using other people's and allows my brain to form a completely separate set of muscle memory that kicks in on the ergodox and neither seem to conflict with each other. Works for my brain, might work for you too.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...

- Learn their default layout first, then iterate on your personal preferences. I similarly tried a bunch at first, but realized switching layouts constantly was making it impossible to build up the new muscle memory.

- Spend time practicing away from important coding tasks (e.g. gaming, writing, a side project, a one-off script, etc.). Being able to learn in a forgiving environment, outside of deadlines, gives you the space to allow mistakes and time to correct them

I've mapped paired symbols to the same finger on opposite hands, so ()[]{}<>/\'" are mirrored, and then also I've got numbers and symbols corresponding as well so the 123... pad on my right is a !@#... pad on my left. It gets me pretty far, but not everything has a mate so I occasionally have a brain fart moment and suddenly I'm hunting for | even though I have years worth of muscle memory on this layout.

So I guess I'd say: design to lean on familiar structures as much as you can and then just commit to using it a lot and don't give yourself too hard of a time when it gets wierd. Whatever you come up with will surely beat the pain associated with having your right on of pinky in charge of 50% of the symbols plus enter.

Try something like a Sinc: https://keeb.io/products/sinc-rev-4-split-staggered-75-keybo...

It's still mechanical, it's still split, it's still QMK programmable, it's got hotswap sockets so you can try different switches... but it's also an extremely normal staggered layout with function keys and everything.

I think it's worth trying the ortho 'n' layers approach, because it has real wins to it; but if you've tried it and don't like it, this is one step closer to normalcy, while still keeping many of the wins.

Yes, you simply need more practice.

Keyboards, layouts etc won't matter as you'll have the same difficulties you're feeling now, no matter what you choose.

Practice and patience, that is the cure.

How long did you spend trying to adjust? it takes some time. I consistently made typos for about 2 months and then it quickly became very natural to type. My only advice here is to slog through the typos for a couple months. Our brains are flexible enough to adapt.

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