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Comment by thahajemni | Hacker News Reader

I, as a European, am worried that these rulings, regulations, and the prevailing mindset will lead to companies leaving and result in technological stagnation, due to our inability to compete with global markets.

Of course, there is something to be said about the dangers, effectiveness, and societal impact of social media. But companies should have the right to decide how they conduct their business. They should also have the incentive to innovate and improve- without being threatened by overly strict or poorly designed laws.

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As a European, I much prefer technological stagnation over technological progress that is harmful to society.

Civilizations that think this way get conquered by ones that don't, and afterwards, nobody much cares what they thought.

You think the US is going to invade Europe and enforce a techno-capitalist oligarchy on it?

Of course not. I do think that the US might get bored of defending a continent that refuses to lift a finger to defend itself --- or put much effort into anything that isn't regulating, censoring, or fining someone, and then someone else will invade Europe and impose a techno-capitalist oligarchy or worse on it.

There is serious talk in the US now that democracy is a failed system and the country would be better run by a bunch of self-selected billionaires in perpetuity.

The election choices are between some-one is clearly senile, or somebody who clearly has no substance and, well, Trump.

Other recent candidates include sons of previous presidents, or wives of previous presidents.

And you are worried about Europe.

Europe is worried about Europe - but in the context of catching what the US has via dark money flowing through tech platforms driving politics.

we are being conquered by google and facebook already. them leaving would be the exact opposite.

Any civilization that calls its citizens making a product choice "conquest" is terminally coddled and isn't going to make it through the century to come.

which choice are you talking about? there is no choice. there are no alternatives to facebook if all your friends are on it. there is no alternative to youtube, and for other products, the alternatives take a lot of effort. (hence despite the existence of linux, there is no choice to windows for example, because it comes preinstalled on every device. same for google infested android)

this is even worse in smaller and in less developed countries. they are most certainly being conquered.

and i don't get what you are trying to say. i am terminally coddled because i view google and facebook as conquerors? what does that even mean?

This seems like a bit of an empty moral panic/slippery slope appeal. As a general rule, it could go either way: civilizations can also collapse from not-enough-regulation, not-enough-rule of law, oligarchic capture, or even just become a megacorporation dystopia without collapsing for a long time, maybe ever. Better to critique the specific case, if you have any objections.

If we're talking about actual technological innovation, then yes perhaps.

In this case we're talking about social media 'innovation' though. The science and art of getting a population highly addicted to doom scrolling. I'm not sure if that will help said population outcompete the other guys.

"As a European, I much prefer technological stagnation over bundled messenger apps"

Fixed it for you.

The ruling here is about choice of recommendation system ('algorithm'), which ties into social media addiction as well as electoral influence. So there's actually quite a bit at stake.

Europe has this delusion that they can keep living their magically relaxed life, and continue to both fund it and stay relevant on the world stage.

FYI, the big players today are the US and China. Nobody has the heart to call and tell Europeans that they aren't really part of the future, they're still away on their 8th week long holiday of the year.

Not staying economically relevant is far (far) more harmful to society than forgoing social media.

Yeah sure, because life in the USA is so much more awesome than in Europe. Naww, they can keep their relevancy in the world stage. We are good over here living in the "stone age".

The problem isn't that Europe is living in the stone age, clearly they aren't. The problem is that they are living in the modern age entirely on the back of foreign tech. Chinese hardware running American software. Industry running on American energy, and protection totally reliant on American defense (the US spent more money per capita in Ukraine than the EU did...). This doesn't even factor in generous welfare programs that will need to be funded by a shrinking population(!) that doesn't have cutting edge skills anymore.

Europe decided to vacation for the last 30 years rather than go to work. The fruit of the post-war era was bountiful, and bank accounts were healthy, so why not take time off? Stone age is not a good way to describe Europe today, but over the next 10-20 years it very well may become more appropriate. European leaders are keenly aware of this, but man is it hard to convince the kids that they need to end their vacation, especially when it is all they have ever known.

> Chinese hardware running American software

Who designed the chip in your phone? Is it more likely to be Intel (US) or is it more likely to be ARM (UK)?

Where does Linux ( which pretty much runs the entire internet from routers to servers ) originate from?

> Industry running on American energy

Eh? While EU imports of US gas are on the rise due to the Ukraine war ( and the blowing up of Russian pipelines which, BTW, the US is implicated in ) - it's a fraction of total energy.

> protection totally reliant on American defense

So the US bases on British islands in the Indian Ocean, or in Japan ( put there after the end of the war with ... Japan ) are purely for the benefit of others and not in anyway part of US global interests?

This is the story American billionaires tell poor Americans every day. Those lazy Europeans may have it good now, but just you wait another 10 years. That affordable healthcare? There won’t be a doctor left! All those parents having a year of paternity leave? Unsustainable!

You guys keep working 80% harder! We will keep 99% of the profits, but don’t worry it will eventually trickle down to you. Hey, maybe one day there will be enough cash left over to fix our healthcare and education systems. Those Europeans are asleep on the wheel. Always protesting and striking and vacationing. Those fools.

companies leaving [will] result in technological stagnation, due to our inability to compete with global markets

on the contrary, companies leaving will allow and force us to develop european alternatives that can actually compete in europe. they don't need to compete on the global market.

Exactly. I’m not worried about this. If Meta leaves, it just opens the door for European alternatives, which means platforms that are easier to oversee. What concerns me more is the AI industry, but business here isn’t backed by private capital, so the willingness to take risks is much lower than in the US, which is a shame.

When it comes to Meta or any other dopamine-driven platform, European society would only gain from their absence. Anyone would do really.

> But companies should have the right to decide how they conduct their business.

Nope - not if it is to the detriment to society ( as decided by society via democratic means ).

In the UK - when radio and TV came along, society recognized the power of these platforms and the danger of how they could amplify single voices with money in an anti-democratic way. As such political advertising on such platforms very tightly controlled.

In addition there are overall limits on campaign spending.

Then along comes companies like Facebook and money powering political ad campaigns comes in through the back door, and in addition a lack of transparency on the overall spend as it's now much easier to hide.

Moves to curb this is simply society re-asserting it's existing rules, not some new imposition.

> I, as a European, am worried that these rulings, regulations, and the prevailing mindset will lead to companies leaving and result in technological stagnation

If your "technological progress" is dependent on algorithmic feeds and pervasive tracking, good riddance.

> But companies should have the right to decide how they conduct their business.

What Meta does is the equivalent of dumping nuclear waste in the middle of your city. I'm sure you don't think companies have the right to do the latter.

I'm very sceptical of the origin of comments like these. I don't know any actual Europeans who share these concerns because they know that the status quo is that the entire EU market is captured by US tech. And that this has been done through anticompetitive tactics as well as offloading trillions in negative externalities onto societies.

If you're truly a concerned European, you're incredibly naive, and need to read much more about how banally evil Meta is.

Zuckerberg: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuckerberg: Just ask Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks

The defendant in the verdict is called "Facebook Netherlands B.V."

I guess they're writing the paperwork to cut off that particular subdivision as we speak.

Facebook Nederland B.V. is just one of the defendants; the other defendants are Meta Platforms Ireland (based in Ireland), and Meta Platforms Inc. (the main company, based in the USA)

The Dutch subsidiary has been acquitted, as it only managed advertisement income, not the app design.

Meta Platforms Inc. has been acquitted, as it itself doesn't directly provide apps or services in Europe (nor the Netherlands) - legally that's managed by Meta Platforms Ireland and so not Inc.'s responsibility.

Meta Platforms Ireland has been ordered to implement these changes, enforced by the up to 5 million euro fine (see pages 20 and 21 in the verdict)

Thank you for clearing that up

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