Comment by codedokode | Hacker News Reader

Comment by codedokode | Hacker News Reader

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> Having separate parameter queues for sample-accurate automation requires plugins to treat their parameters in a very specific way (basically, you need audio-rate buffers for your parameter values that are as long as the maximum host block) in order to be written efficiently.

Oh I forgot about parameters. In VST3, the parameter changes use linear interpolation. So the DAW can predict how the plugin would interpret parameter value between changes and use this to create the best piece-wise linear approximation for automation curve (not merely sampling the curve every N samples uniformly which is not perfect).

CLAP has no defined interpolation method, and every plugin would interpolate the values in its own, unique and unpredictable way (and if you don't interpolate, there might be clicks). It is more difficult for a host to create an approximation for an automation curve. So with CLAP "sample-precise" might be not actually sample-precise.

I didn't find anything about interpolation in the spec, but it mentions interpolation for note expressions [1]:

> A plugin may make a choice to smooth note expression streams.

Also, I thought that maybe CLAP should have used the same event for parameters and note expessions? Aren't they very similar?

> duped's comment about needing to create "dummy" parameters which get mapped to MIDI CCs is spot-on as well. JUCE does this. 2048 additional parameters (128 controllers * 16 channels) just to receive CCs. At least JUCE handles those parameters sample-accurately!

What is the purpose of this? Why does plugin (unless it is a MIDI effect) need values for all controllers? Also, MIDI2 has more than 128 controllers anyway so this is a poor solution.

[1] https://github.com/free-audio/clap/blob/main/include/clap/ev...

> Oh I forgot about parameters. In VST3, the parameter changes use linear interpolation. So the DAW can predict how the plugin would interpret parameter value between changes and use this to create the best piece-wise linear approximation for automation curve (not merely sampling the curve every N samples uniformly which is not perfect).

Can you link to any code anywhere that actually correctly uses the VST3 linear interpolation code (other than the "again_sampleaccurate" sample in the VST3 SDK)? AU also supports "ramped" sample-accurate parameter events, but I am not aware of any hosts or plugins that use this functionality.

> CLAP has no defined interpolation method, and every plugin would interpolate the values in its own, unique and unpredictable way (and if you don't interpolate, there might be clicks). It is more difficult for a host to create an approximation for an automation curve. So with CLAP "sample-precise" might be not actually sample-precise.

Every plugin does already interpolate values on its own. It's how plugin authors address zipper noise. VST3 would require plugin authors to sometimes use their own smoothing and sometimes use the lerped values. Again, I'm not aware of any plugins that actually implement the linear interpolated method. I think Melda? It certainly requires both building directly on the VST3 SDK and also using the sample-accurate helpers (which only showed up in 2021 with 3.7.3).

Anyway, I maintain that this is a bad design. Plugins are already smoothing their parameters (usually with 1 pole smoothing filters) and switching to this whole interpolated sample accurate VST3 system requires a pretty serious restructuring.

Personally, I would have loved having a parameter event flag in CLAP indicating whether a plugin should smooth a parameter change or snap immediately to it (for better automation sync). Got overruled, oh well.

> What is the purpose of this? Why does plugin (unless it is a MIDI effect) need values for all controllers? Also, MIDI2 has more than 128 controllers anyway so this is a poor solution.

Steinberg has been saying exactly this since 2004 when VST3 was first released. Time and time again, plugin developers say that they do need them. For what? Couldn't tell you, honestly. In my case, I would have to migrate a synth plugin from MPE to also be able to use the VST3 note expressions system, and I absolutely cannot be bothered - note expressions look like a nightmare.

And this is the chief problem with VST3. The benefits are either dubious or poorly communicated, and the work required to implement these interfaces is absurd. Again – 3 days to implement CLAP vs 3 weeks to implement VST3 and I'm still finding VST3 host bugs routinely.

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