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Comment by johnfn | Hacker News Reader

Controversial take, but have we considered that possibly dating apps dont suck, and that this perception is driven by a vocal minority of the people who have the worst experience on them? (A sad fact is that dating will just suck for some % of the population. Is it possible that if there were no apps the same % would be saying how IRL dating sucks?) I know many people in stable LTRs or married who met through dating apps. But I don’t think you typically find these people participating in discourse about dating apps. If anything they’ve probably moved on to complaining why wedding planners and baby books or whatever suck.

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> Controversial take, but have we considered that possibly dating apps don't suck, and that this perception is driven by a vocal minority of the people who have the worst experience on them?

Yes. The reality is well known. PlentyOfFish used to publish statistics. About 10% of dating app users are "date bacon" and find matches they like. Everyone else is a dissatisfied loser. The losers provide the repeat business and the profits, just like the gambling industry.

What women want is > 6' tall, over $100K a year, reasonably good looking, and reasonably young compared to the woman. This is about 1% of the US male population.

But a much higher fraction of dating service profiles. Two good-looking women I know have shown me their side of a dating app. Each had over 1000 matches, but the ones they met did not live up to their resume. (Fun fact: the organization of ex Navy SEALS says that there are at least 10x as many people claiming to be ex-SEALS as actually exist. There aren't that many of those guys. Only a few thousand. But on dating apps...)

I thought the Navy Seal thing was to impress other men. Does it have sex appeal? Probably depends on your social circle.. but I'd think being ex-military as highly unattractive (more violent than the average person, and highly likely to have trauma)

I'd assume that those guys (falsely claiming to have been Seals) were poor judges of what women find appealing.

Or too wrapped up in their own machismo to particularly care.

Are not (some) women attracted to bad boys ?

Not to mention jody!!!

Bro, women don't care about reasonably young, the vast majority of women want older men, the daddy and silver fox memes are real. For younger women, the preferred age gap is smaller, but the older the woman gets, the larger the age window above her gets. A lot of women in their early 30s are thirsting after men in their mid-late 40s with resources and their shit together.

> What women want

There are 4 billions women on this planet.

The average women as a concept is meaningless for someone looking for a person to date. Even if you could only find someone far in the metaphorical tail, variance and population size are so high we are talking millions of people. Lesbian manages to find people to marry for god sake.

This kind of weird generalisation really needs to die. It helps absolutely no one.

I think it’s true that most people have a bad experience, but I don’t think it’s caused by things like height, age, and income level…. But social skills, confidence, and emotional vulnerability, which are things almost anyone can develop with deliberate effort, and also lead to better and more stable relationships.

For me, developing vulnerability and risk taking caused me to go from completely unsuccessful, to being able to date pretty much anyone I wanted on these apps. Counter intuitively, the main thing I had to do was stop holding back the things I had previously been afraid to share about myself because I was afraid they made me seem unattractive, and instead confidently own who I really am. It’s very rare for a woman on these apps to encounter someone that seems genuine, unafraid, and vulnerable- and you will stand out like crazy.

It’s not just men having a hard time on these apps- despite the huge number of people, most women really struggle to find anyone that seems appealing, and most of the dates they do go on end up awful as the men are emotionally unavailable, nervous, and afraid to be vulnerable, which makes them impossible to connect with, no matter how tall and rich they may be.

It’s very appealing to believe that the problem is something outside of your control, but it’s rarely the case.

And those social skills, confidence, emotional vulnerability appear where exactly on the profile?

Please. Online dating is 80% looks, 10% height and 10% money.

You have photos and text, try making them funny and showing off that you’re not afraid to hide things about yourself that others would hide- maybe emphasize and show a weird hobby or interest that other people might be worried to share. Of course this only works if you’re actually funny or actually have unusual hobbies. One guy I know literally posted silly photos of himself awkwardly pole dancing and got tons of matches. Even if you’re tall and rich, I advise being interesting instead and making it impossible to tell those things, if you want to match with people that are not boring and shallow. Have a good time and be light hearted- having a bad attitude about how dating is unfair will be impossible to hide and looks like a major personality flaw.

The only problem with this is its defeatist framing.

What most women who use dating apps are looking for, in a profile on that dating app, is essentially what you described, or at least a set of similarly rare attributes. Even worse, is the set of attributes that she is looking to avoid.

Dating apps are nothing but attributes. That's their core problem, and their core success. If you can get a small percentage (probably male) of users to attract a less-small percentage of (probably female) users, you end up with an infinite churn of "success" (read engagement).

The natural incentive in this situation is to show that small percentage of popular male profiles to as many users as possible. This gives you both profitable engagement and actual success metrics that you can brag about!

---

So now that we understand the problem a little more, can we start working to solve it?

Real question about those two women with over 1000 matches: Why don't top quality men approach them in public? It is weird they are on the apps. If you are a 7 or above, high quality men are constantly approaching you, to the point of annoyance. Or do they use the apps to find a simp/sugar daddy to pay for their dinner and lifestyle?

The fact is that younger generations are increasingly more single and finding it harder and harder to date. If dating apps are primarily to blame could be up for debate but something about the modern world is clearly not working.

I mean, we’re already six years past COVID—something that placed a heavy mental burden even on older generations. I can only imagine how much worse it was for younger people. I’d argue we’ll need another 20 years before most of the effects fade.

Even before then, I don’t think dating apps were the only issue—it was more the general lack of human interaction, with everything shifting online. Being in a relationship is nothing like just "chatting" or being "connected." I’m not complaining, but during my teenage and young adult years, I feel like I had less-than-ideal real-life experiences, which shaped my social skills and expectations. Talking to people in their 30s now, I get the sense they’re only experience this much later in life.

> I mean, we’re already six years past COVID—something that placed a heavy mental burden

The only new factor that COVID brought in concerning dating is that it separated society into two groups which in German are disrespectfully called "Coronazis" (those who defended the restrictions of civil rights because of COVID-19) and "Covidioten" (those who did not believe in the COVID-19 fearmongering and the government measures). Both of these groups realized that they are not compatible with the other group on a human level and are thus no suitable dating matches.

This actually lead to the inception of a new dating site for those who are skeptical of official COVID-19 narrative or feel attracted to people who share personality traits of such people: https://www.conscious-love.com

> The only new factor that COVID brought in

No it also brought kids who missed one year of socialization, positive social experiences, mingling.

Just one year? It changed habits forever in favour of remote classes, in which schoolm don’t play their role in giving a cohesive experience for students.

As a kid in final days of high school. This is so true.

I was talking to this about this to my mum just a few days ago and she said that no it didn't impact, but I was so shocked because honestly I feel like its just not even the kids but everyone which got impacted but I genuinely feel like that there was this sense of loneliness in covid

I am not sure but before covid everyone was friends with everybody else kind of things, I was in 6th grade and I would honestly consider it one of the best periods of my life, I remember how one of my friends had prepared covid as a general knowledge fact for an exam and he spoke it in class and we didn't think much of it untill it started spreading and then our 7th class became purely online due to lockdowns etc.

I do feel like that there is a lost year or more and that has impacted people in a lot of ways.

Personally, the one thing I noticed was the fact that a lot of the times, we felt like being watched by others and what not to a bigger degree.

Like, I remember just talking to girls as friends when I was in 6th grade, It wasn't that much of a big deal but later in covid and even after covid, when the school re-opened. I found that girls used to sit seperately and we boys used to sit seperately in completely seperate rows, not even on the same rows or the same benches.

Before covid this wasn't the case and we were sort of forced by our teachers to sit whether with boys or girls randomly and there were some good interactions that I deeply miss.

I am not sure if this is just something that naturally tansitions from 6th to 7th grade thing or something, We boys and girls used to talk but there was clearly this disconnect of 1 year between us, boys used to talk so frequently in boys group and girls in the girls but whenever a girl talked to us, it was most likely in public chats and I mean, you could never just small talk to somebody, I think I loved small talks so I used to create personal groups with my homies just chatting but the mere act of adding a girl to talk personally online felt really making a big deal I guess.

I personally noticed so many smaller things which I have felt as if have somewhat radicalized both girls and boys even in small mannerisms.

There became a us vs them mentality at a younger age which really got radical in 9th grade for sure.

> she said that no it didn't impact

Depending on the shape of the discussion, maybe she denied it so you don’t fell into the “I’m victim, it’s over now” trap. Grownups do that. Don’t take it bad. I’m 45 and single, and grownups tell me all the time that it’s not too late for me. I think they deny the obvious to console me, but living in a situation where everyone denies your actual situation is disorienting, and makes things worse than facing the truth.

> boys and girls sit apart

That’s a sudden transition in about 1 year at the age of ~12 (I don’t know what 6th grade is). It’s forever; after that they only rejoin again as couples ;) You can still make girls into friends, and groups like at the workplace include women easily (hopefully), but there’s always a tension on who’s going to date whom, and is this guy trying to creep on me, etc. which makes both genders more natural apart.

Just to help you distinguish between Covid effects and normal life.

What’s probably specific on Covid was: Dating fell off (2021), dating at the workplace is a big nono (2017), cost of living (2022), radicalization of opinion and realization that pro-Covid and doubters don’t fit together (2020). On the last point, I remember leftists and rightwings living together before that, and it might have started in 2017 with the Trump election, but each other deny the sanity of the other group. i.e. really radicalized.

Yeah radicalization is really bad

I wasn't intending to victimize myself, I am not saying that its just me whose changed, but its rather the whole world which feels changed idk really

That’s a sudden transition in about 1 year at the age of ~12

Yeah I was of 11 years in 6th grade, and since the sudden transition happened after covid in 7th-8th grade when I was in 12-13 years old, I assumed it was because of covid where this seperation began, its good to know that isn't the case but still

Afyer 7th grade, I wasn't on any social media like instagram even though my whole class generally was.

I feel like online helps reduce the tension but as someone not using insta, I wasn't going to ask a girl her number since even in 7th-8th grade I knew that it felt as if a huge deal.

I always felt like the us vs them thing, we boys didn't need a reason to talk to each other, "hey bro what's up"

Whereas as I said, you always felt like a reason to talk to girls, I mean not always but usually, simply because you haven't talked to a person in 1-2 years and they don't even sit with you and you rarely need their help and vice versa

Honestly all of these things just make me treat woman really in a way to not be myself completely, like as an example, I am confident with my homies, I would just rant about anything or be myself completely and live my life but I will try to present myself in a better light in front of woman generally, not sure if that's a bad thing or good thing but I just want a girl really to be completely honest to each other to see if me and her are compatible or not and if there were some issues, then to read the relationship issues and try to fix what I can fix in my life really.

> I’m 45 and single, and grownups tell me all the time that it’s not too late for me. I think they deny the obvious to console me, but living in a situation where everyone denies your actual situation is disorienting, and makes things worse than facing the truth.

I will tell you the truth in the sense that its a mixed bag. Culture plays an important role in influencing what a girl seeks in a man in the sense that there is just a (sensation?) that if they like a guy or not whereas we males generally have a somewhat fixed/universal standard of what we look for in a girl.

So now whatever a girl feels, one of the most important factors found is culture/shared values. As an example, Girls with strong countryside culture or cultures which value money, might value a guy whose stable in his 40's more than a struggling artist but I have found that there are other girls whose culture makes them value struggling artist more than the stability.

I think you just need to find common values. Try to meet woman more and actually ask for dates etc. start slow, start by asking for time from a random girl (the example the book gave), and move up to complimenting to then asking for dates to random girls

Another key note is that everybody has a very high rejection/ low compatbility rate, mark manson's book gave an idea about it but I found out that rejections are common, in fact more probable so you shouldn't bother about it at all or atleast try not to.

Personally i have tried such things but I wasn't ready and I still think I am not, I am honestly just going to talk to girls asking for dates etc only after getting to know them first instead of the opposite, maybe sharing some common qualities like coding/messing around with linux and niche ideas y'know?

But I would still recommend you that although I understand you, I also understand why everybody denies it, simply because they don't want to make you lose hope in the whole situation.

It maybe hard but there is no definition of hard here really, There are some qualities which other people might envy of you for sure and you might too but you are you and they are them, you are perfectly fine in your own body and playing with whatever thing you have got, no matter how hard or easy it is. I would say its still worth it and also maybe once again, that you might be thinking of it as something too hard and I understand that.

Just try to be a honest guy, if you think you really enjoy the company of some girl, just tell them in an honest way and just be yourself, I feel like that could help the most but I would say to please keep my advice with bare minimum as my track record for dating has been ... rough to say the least and I have taken a break from it for sometime I suppose.

Yep, that’s the moral of the story: Keep trying, for both of us. PS: Don’t expect a girl to share programming as a hobby, it’s virtually nonexistent, even if it looks like this at school.

> PS: Don’t expect a girl to share programming as a hobby, it’s virtually nonexistent, even if it looks like this at school

Oh man, I don't know, I don't have any gaming hobbies or etc.

Whom am I gonna share how I fixed my disk using testdisk and show my dotfiles or any cool project that I found to?

Its a very big part of me and I want a girl to understand it. To embrace it if possible. I wouldn't say I am programming as much as I am tinkering and making shit work and I feel like I can do a lot of things which I am proud of, of which otherwise I would have given up but I persisted.

I do want someone to appreciate it, appreciate me wholly. Understand me.

Although maybe I am having too many expectations.

Would love to have a chat / continue this chat with ya if that's possible really.

I agree with you in general, but I'm pretty sure the change you saw in how in boys and girls interacted with each other before and after COVID was due to puberty, not COVID, given the ages you were at the time.

A big part is that it is now socially unacceptable to ask someone out at what were some of the places most likely to produce couples in the past.

For example, it used to be that something like 30-40% of relationships started in the workplace.

How soon until your (true) point is used to spin RTO propaganda?

The "Me Too" movement fucked all of that. RTO won't help.

Dating apps 100% suck. I'm a good looking guy and I put the effort into getting great pictures and optimizing my profile to the point I was able to get dates 5+ nights a week and date 2-3 new women a week, and while it was validating, the quality of dates was significantly worse than what I used to get from just approaching women in places like bookstores, after yoga classes, etc when that wasn't as culturally abnormal.

Ironically I met my wife while I was on a date with another woman. We had a much better organic connection, and she was way hotter than almost all the girls on the apps.

This anecdote does not really feel like an argument that dating apps suck. Sounds like you were using them wrong somehow

I mean, that’s not really an informed skepticism is it? Respectfully, you’d have an idea of what the commenter means if you’re attractive.

In my own experience I quite agree. When you have more than a hundred matches, it just sucks, because the fact that you have that many matches means you’ve cast your net too wide. You swiped right solely on the basis of looks but the good dates are good because other factors like personality and similarity in interests and sense of humor turn out to actually matter. Those are things best gauged via face-to-face interaction.

    > I was able to get dates 5+ nights a week and date 2-3 new women a week

For the record, you are probably well into the top 20% of attractive men on the apps. You should know that your experience is very much unlike the average man. The average normie on dating apps (5/10 in looks) gets, quite literally, zero matches, or matches only from scammers/bots/OnlyFans. There are numerous long-form YouTube videos on the topic with first hand experience.

    > the quality of dates was significantly worse than what I used to get from just approaching women in places like

This is an interesting comment. Can you share one or two specific things that come to mind? I can offer one from my personal experience: When you approach someone in public (get their number, etc.), then later meet them for lunch/drinks/dinner, their enthusiasm and effort is much higher than people I meet on the apps.

That's a big part of it. When I met women in person they could get my vibe and know 100% what was on offer, so if they decided they were interested they were in it. I think the uncertainty of meeting someone new tends to linger for a while even if a date goes well, so it creates some dissonance.

There's also just the quality aspect. Hot high value women don't need the apps to get a good suitor, and if they're on the apps even tall successful good looking men face rough odds, since these women can skim the cream of the cream on platforms and usually are looking for the best sugar daddy. In person you can be charming, kind and a good conversationalist, and as long as you meet a woman's bar (which I pretty much always did) you can shortcut the line because you're REAL and here NOW. A bird in the hand an all that...

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