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Comment by Waterluvian | Hacker News Reader

The sooner things become intolerably broken in the U.S. the better off I think the rest of the world is. The U.S. kind of scares me right now. So much power, wielded by deeply incompetent, broken, and evil people. And those who aren't those things are demonstrably too weak to do anything about it. I have a sense that things will only improve once they hit an intolerable low. And the longer it takes for that to happen, the more normalized it will become for all of those people. Basically: I really hope the current regime boils the water too fast.

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A major part of the plot of The Every[0] is one protagonist's belief, akin to yours, that precipitating things to their worst outcome could be the fastest way to snap public opinion back to sanity.

I don't want to spoil the suspense, but I'll say that I do see the logic in hoping that a quick fire would call everyone's attention to the fire hazard. What you're failing to ask here is "What could possibly go wrong with this plan?"

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Every

The house is already on fire. The choices are to allow it to burn down and rebuild, taking the arsonists with it, or attempting to slow them down while the fire continues to burn and their supporters cheer them on.

American Democracy appears to be the same as second generation wealth: unappreciated until gone. Make Functional Governance Great Again. I wish it were not so.

Hahahahahahahhaa the arsonists aren’t going down with it, the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas. The only people watching the house burn are those with an insurance policy out on it.

The supporters are the people who keep voting Republican while Republicans (the arsonists) are stripping them of their SNAP benefits and ACA subsidies, while also dismantling the federal government out of ideology. The wealthy might influence (they spent over $40M to influence the NYC mayor election and still lost, for example), but the voters are the root cause.

It's quite literally a cult now. It doesn't matter if the house burns down, they'd still rather die in the fire than let woke liberals "win".

If the house burns down, we'll be both poor and surrounded (and led) by neo-Nazis.

I get the reasoning and I think it’s colourable. But I can’t help but be irritated having grown up hearing nothing but “Liberty or death” rhetoric of American identity, only to find it was all a pathetic cosplay.

The fact that liberty died far before Trump was part of what he used in his cards to gain power. He sold a tale of draining the swamp, and tailoring back the federal of government. Of course, he's basically expanded the more dystopian power, and pumped in more swamp water, but part of the reason why his campaign is successful was that indeed liberty has been lacking in the USA for a long time and to some of the people that actually cared, he whispered the right lies.

"Liberty or death" never meant the first resort is detonating a proverbial nuke in Manhattan if a bad guy showed up in Time's Square.

But I agree that it's always been a pathetic cosplay. Most "patriots" I've met are by far the least patriotic and actively hate their fellow countrymen.

> the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas.

Islands do make easy targets, though—they’re hard to move and they’re hard to hide.

Easy targets to whom?

The imaginary people with the power to go take a private island in this fantasy scenario are the same people with the existing power to be on one.

How are you planning to go storm those beaches?

> Easy targets to whom?

Anybody with a $200 drone and a chip on their shoulder. All I’m saying is: if there is widespread civil unrest, billionaires are going to find themselves with giant targets on their backs.

When my brother and I argue this, that’s the position he takes: the risk is enormous. He’s the most brilliant mind I know (an immigration lawyer who has settled the Government’s hash more than once at the Supreme Court of Canada), so if I had any real say in all this, I would defer to him.

I can't deny that and maybe would even agree with that as an abstract theory, but I just can't stomach the amount of misery and death that would come along with this to ever use a word like "hope" to describe that outcome.

I don’t know if it’s reasonable or not to wish that, as an analogy, the German people had started a true civil war with the Nazis when they seized power. I can see how folks would wonder though.

Germany was not the hub of the world back then. Very different situations.

Yes, that is what an analogy is...

> A similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar. A comparison based on such similarity.

I completely agree. It's a good thing we're in a multipolar world now. The US (and its vassal states) have ruled terribly and the world suffered much over it. Sadly, there is still a lot of propaganda that needs to go away. A great world leader would spread genuine peace. Not corrupt other countries, start wars and shed blood. The USA has failed to even keep its own citizens safe and secure. All I worry about is that they will drag a lot of other countries with them while they are falling.

Less and less likely they’ll drag others down, the first trump presidency was a warning, it’s gonna suck in the rest of the western world but we’ll survive.

So how can you completely agree if even you worry?

I worry more. I am certain, for all bad things the US did, the multipolar world will be much much worse. You think the other power players are better? No way.

The US hasn't been perfect, but you can hardly say we've ruled the world terribly. Because who has ever ruled it better?

We helped Europe and Asia rebuild after WWII instead of conquering them. To the extent that our previous enemies in Germany and Japan now have some of the strongest economies in the world.

There have certainly been wars, often with dubious justification or horrific results, but good luck finding any superpower in history that hasn't gotten into bad wars. Unlike the US, most of the time those other superpowers used war for territorial expansion, like Russia is doing in Ukraine today.

You can dream of your utopian world order all you want, but at some point you have to judge the US against the alternative instead of the almighty.

> but you can hardly say we've ruled the world terribly.

"Terribly" is definitely a fair assessment.

> who has ever ruled it better?

Blatant whataboutism.

> instead of conquering them

"I protected them in so many ways, cared for them as if they were my own children. But to this day, is there a single statue of me on Bajor?"

I love the DS9 reference. But it also reminds me of Hamilton:

    You'll be back, time will tell
    You'll remember that I served you well
    Oceans rise, empires fall
    We have seen each other through it all
    And when push comes to shove
    I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love!

The idea that the world was better off under American rule is so deeply ironic that my brain is breaking.

What you call whataboutism, I call comparative evaluation.

On an absolute scale, every world power in history and humanity in general has been terrible. Endless injustices and atrocities since the very start.

That’s just not a very useful way to look at things though.

Historically low points are when very bad regimes seize full control.

This is, uh, not usually how these things work out, historically speaking.

A desperate country with an extremely strong military is not a great situation for anyone.

The hope is presumably that the water boils fast enough to prompt electoral action before this regime eliminates voting rights and inevitably embroils itself in war to distract from its failings at home.

I suppose we'll find out in the next 361 days?

Europe has certainly had its share of deeply incompetent, broken, and evil people. So, so many. Such profound impact.

I think any country will see this, despite all the wishing in the world.

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