Hacker News Reader

> The article itself even seems to hint at it, but not note it explicitly: in a graph labeled "life sentences", purporting to show how long it takes for "European" entrepreneurs to be free of debt, the bar for Denmark is so small that you can barely see it. Maybe they mean primarily French & German entrepreneurs?

It says the average time to discharge debt in the US is less than a year, so that the vast majority of Europe (by number of countries and by population) takes much longer. The existence of a pocket of 5 million people in Denmark (basically a large city) where it is less hardly diminishes the generalization.

> The main advantage to doing it here, imo, is that the healthcare story is solved, though maybe that'll be better in the U.S. after PPACA comes into effect in 2014.

This comment sounds more motivated by politics than the actual business of start-ups. Healthcare is a significant cost for businesses in the US, but the difficulty of providing insurance for employees is hardly even discussed here around HN as an important consideration for start-ups, compared to, say, finding capital, good managers, compensation schemes, entrepreneurial spirit, government regulation, and so on.

> the difficulty of providing insurance for employees is hardly even discussed here around HN

That's not my impression of HN! It comes up fairly regularly, and is cited as a problem by a number of startup founders. Among others, tptacek has mentioned in a few threads that providing founders/employees with healthcare is a significant problem for early-stage, small companies, especially for bootstrappers, and for people trying to freelance (it becomes easier if you're large-ish, where you can negotiate a group plan).

I suppose it's a political comment in the sense that anything in this space is political, but my personal interest is just in somehow being able to work for myself while also having health coverage. I'd like to move back to the US at some point for cultural/family reasons, and the problems with the individual-insurance market are one of the things holding me back at the moment. I hardly care which kinds of politics fix that problem, as long as a fix of some kind appears...

Among others, tptacek has mentioned in a few threads that providing founders/employees with healthcare is a significant problem for early-stage, small companies, especially for bootstrappers, and for people trying to freelance (it becomes easier if you're large-ish, where you can negotiate a group plan).

Since this discussion is primarily about entrepreneurialism in Europe, I'll note that most, if not all, of the major economies in Europe have socialised healthcare systems. There are also, at least in the UK, various rules that apply to employers in general but have built-in limitations or outright exceptions for businesses with only a small number of people.

There certainly are hurdles to taking on new staff here, but often it's more about getting rid of employees rather than day-to-day overheads while they're employed. In particular, the difficulty of firing even someone who is severely underperforming is notorious in many of these economies, which makes the risk of taking someone on in the first place proportionately greater.

But don't you think my other examples (finding capital, good managers, compensation schemes, entrepreneurial spirit, government regulation) are all more discussed? Again, it's not a non-issue; it's just that if you cite this as your major concern, you're either an unusual case or just want to talk politics.

"grants are available, and you can get some cheap early part-time employees by participating in subsidized internship programs intended to "upskill" people on unemployment" => but be careful there; most government money is not handed as money but as less/no (income) taxes. For instance I can get E40k money from the government if I start up a company, but that E40k is money I don't have to pay as income tax. That's great, except if you don't have the money to pay income in the first place. There are money grants but, in my experience, most connected with tax which are worthless if you cannot or do not pay the money over which that tax has to be paid in the first place...

There are some cash grants available, though perhaps more in some areas than others. I'm thinking of smallish grants targeting bootstrapping companies, stuff in the €25,000-€100,000 range. A friend starting a videogame-development company has gotten grants from both the Danish Film Institute, and the Nordic Game Program, for example, just paid out in cash.

They have some here for around E40k, but more in niches (maybe there too); for film/games you have specific grants while 'more boring' (however with a higher probability of success) companies have to fight harder. Maybe in Denmark it is a bit easier.

As an American living in Denmark

How did that happen?

Also, would love to meet up.

He probably didn't swim there.

same here. since I'm from Copenhagen.

May e-mail is in my profile in case you, or anyone else from the Copenhagen area, wants to have coffee.

i just moved to cph; i'm always up for grabbing coffee

> As an American living in Denmark, I would personally prefer to bootstrap a business here rather than in the U.S., though it does depend on what kind of business. The main advantage to doing it here, imo, is that the healthcare story is solved

I'm finn and I would definitely want to start a business in US rather than in europe (or in finland), the advantages are enormous - much better access to funding and very large homogenous potential customer pool being the 2 most important issues.

What a breath of fresh air after reading the same old simplistic crap: "Europe is too socialist".

Combined with lax immigration, it certainly is. I'm from Belgium, and I would never give up healthcare, education or basic benefits. But The pendulum has swung too far.

In the US, Denmark is often taken as the perfect example of socialism done right. But people leave out 2 very important factors:

- Denmark has an abundance of national oil reserves, and exploited them very cleverly. (This is a big advantage to less fortunate nations)

- Denmark is much stricter (smarter) when it comes to taking in immigrants than France/Benelux

I think you might be thinking of Norway on the oil part. Denmark produces some oil, but not a particularly large amount, and almost entirely in the past 10 years. Tax/royalty revenues to the state now amount to about 3% of the state budget, which is a nice cushion, but not really the main source of funds.

I agree with you the pendulum has swung a bit far. But I think these sort of articles are just way off. Yes, there are bureaucracy and labour laws that are unhelpful. However, they are not the main reason Europe does not produce more entrepreneurs.