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Comment by mgfist | Hacker News Reader

I don't like unions because one bad hire can destroy a whole team, and the option to remove that hire is worth more than any benefit a union can give me.

I also think people here misunderstand what unions do. Unions are inherently conservative (small c) institutions that aim to protect the status quo. Improving processes is not a fundamental goal to unions. We saw this with the ILA that fought to essentially ban automation in the ports that would drastically increase efficiency because of the belief that this would reduce union jobs. It's foolish to think software unions wouldn't end up becoming like this.

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I'd rather have the protections for my working conditions than worrying about whether my co-workers are contributing enough to the company's bottom line but maybe that makes me an outlier here.

I'd say it does. I take pride and meaning in working. Life's too short to not care about a thing you do 8 hours a day. And bad colleagues doesn't just include people not contributing enough.

It doesn't make you an outlier. Most people work to live, not live to work.

> I don't like unions because one bad hire can destroy a whole team, and the option to remove that hire is worth more than any benefit a union can give me.

In MANY other countries there is already WAY more regulations regarding layoffs and firing employees that has nothing to do with unions.

In Germany there is a probationary period in which you can just fire somebody for no reason basically. That time can be like half a year (in my case) and in most cases it becomes clear if the new hire fits your team or doesn't.

All unrelated to unions though. The big unions in Germany for example have a lot of power and if you are just a simple welder for example you'd have no chance getting anything done without a union.

> In MANY other countries...

When your scope is Europe ... The US is not the exception in the world, it's Europe which is.

The US has a dynamic job market where it's easy to lose your job, but easy to find another one. In Europe, and that's true for most EU countries, it's really hard to lose your job, but it's also really hard to get one for the very reason it's hard to get fired - and when you get a job, you will have to compromise on compensation and other benefits. It's not black and white here. While the European market is appealing to some people, the US market is preferable to others.

> It's not black and white here. While the European market is appealing to some people, the US market is preferable to others.

I agree with that, it's a very individual topic. I'd say for high paying "high performance" jobs the US model definitely has an advantage but for low-wage jobs it's quite the opposite.

No need to go as far as "low wage". Having strong labour protections is great if you are middle class and below.

Counterpoint: Denmark has something called Flexcurity: "flexible" + "security". Basically, it means you can hire and fire more easily than traditional socialist market economies. There is a good social safety net, but it is (somewhat) time constrained to pressure people to return to work quickly.

Yeah and denmark finally voted left because they are finally getting tired of all this right wing shit that brings no benefit to workers.

Did they vote left? And that's the same left pushing over and over the Chat Control? That's an interesting twist if it turns out it's not always the right wing trying to undermine privacy rights.

You think Ursula von der Leyen is left wing? Like Lenin, Stalin and Ursula von der Leyen are in the same political party?

She is the European Commission president, that's unrelated.

But that made me curious, and answering my own question, it's this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hummelgaard who is indeed a Social Democrat .. So much about workers rights, funny ...

Well the proposal came from the european commission, doesn't seem that unrelated to me.

Good insight. Let's see whether Denmark remains competitive.

To be clear, the modern programme started in the 1990s. That makes it about 30 years old. If it had major problems, I assume they would be fixed by now.

Re-reading your comment again, I'm not sure that I understand it: "Let's see whether Denmark remains competitive." What do you mean?

And this is one of the key reasons why Germany is economically stagnant, especially in the software industry.

"thanks for preserving status quo" - your boss

I've had a really shit boss who was thankfully fired and I wouldn't want him to have been in a union either.

There's trial periods… why do you notice a bad hire after 5 years?

People change, roles change, responsibilities change, motivations change.

You mean you made them miserable at their job and now it's their fault right?

???

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