Comment by mattmaroon | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mattmaroon | Hacker News Reader

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Yeah I might have thought that too if I didn’t own commercial vehicles. I own a few and the idea of switching to an EV for them is laughable. Go tow stuff for 8 hours one day and ask yourself “if I had to stop for 30 minutes every 90 miles how would I like this day?”

Battery ranges decline by over 50% when towing. The long term health of a battery requires you to keep it within a range of about 60% of the max capacity (ie between 20 and 80). So that’s if anything a generous estimate. You’d increase your labor cost by 25% just charging, not to mention that public charging isn’t any cheaper than fuel. I’m not even factoring in lost job profits or overtime.

The margins the Ford dealer takes are not the issue. The cost of the vehicle itself amortized by the hour is much less than the labor cost of operating it. If I could get any EV truck at the same cost as my diesel, I still wouldn’t. If you’ve got two guys out, that’s $50 burnt every time they charge (at least) and that may be 2+ times a day. Your fuel cost is irrelevant. Five minutes at a gas station and a tank of diesel is still cheaper.

It has some use cases I’m sure (delivery vans since it is one worker, city driving, short range) but most commercial vehicle work is simply not going electric given current battery technology.

Most heavy trucks are sold to people who don’t really need them, but buy them to signal cultural allegiance and get a tax break.

Citation needed

This sound like every EVangalist who says road trips aren’t important when most everyone takes at least one a year.

Citation: "Ford F-Series Is America’s Best-Selling Model For The 43rd Consecutive Year (2024)"

Either the US has a lot of electricians and plumbers, all those people aren't buying these trucks because they need them.

Just look anywhere outside the US — nobody buys trucks like these. And that's because they're incredibly niche. They're worse than all other options. A regular sedan is a better everyday car and can fulfill most of your "i need a truck" use cases anyway.

BTW, I was kidding with the electricians and plumbers, they have no need for a truck. Nobody does.

For anything you'd actually need a truck for, an appropriately sized van is better. You'd have to be hauling dirt and sand offroad in rural areas on a regular basis without somehow being able to use a trailer for a flatbed truck to make any sense as a purchase. Guess how many people in the US have a need for that. Certainly not enough to push the sales numbers to #1.

> road trips aren’t important when most everyone takes at least one a year

Exactly, optimizing your life around something you do once per year is completely irrational.

Buy all the trucks all you want, just don't claim it's a sensible, rational decision. It's not.

I live in Hawaii where the Toyota Tacoma is basically the state mascot. I owned almost exclusively sedans before I moved here. A friend from the bay area moved here several years ago and argued he wouldn't need a pickup, but ended up getting a Rivian within a year or so.

The pickup is more practical than a van here because you end up hauling a lot of dirty/sandy/wet stuff. Yes, you could put this in your van, but hooray now you have sand and water in your van that you need to clean out (and you do need to because the heat will turn it into mildew immediately if you don't). The bed of the truck is outside. It dries out on its own. The sand falls out on its own.

I can't speak for other parts of the US, but use cases can be subtle and I would be slightly cautious about deciding that 300M people and a several trillion dollar market has been completely irrational for decades.

Alaska checking in. Nobody is hauling a skidoo around here in a van. You also won’t see anyone towing a trailer with one or two machines with anything other than a truck, because nothing else is going to hack it in the mountains with all that. I currently just drive mine up a ramp into the truck bed, I can quickly park and get off and go and back on again. Very versatile combo to get around with.

Right tool for the job. I drive an AWD Prius with winter tires to get groceries in the snow.

When I lived in anchorage ages ago Subarus were really popular.

Everyone with a truck had to put a bunch of weight in the back to manage the roads in the winter.

It’s the same here in Fairbanks. We also have an Outback that we drove here when we moved a decade ago (towing a trailer, no less). That and the Prius both handle fabulously with winter tires. Since I only use the truck for hauling, it’s always weighted in the back!

This is a combination of ignorance and prejudice that I shared not that long ago. It is, I assure you, incorrect.

Define “need”. I only use my snow shovel like 3 days a year. Does that mean I don’t need a snow shovel? I only camp in my camper one month a year, but I can’t move that thing with anything other than a pickup. I don’t “need” my truck for that. I operate several food trailers. I can’t tow most of them even with my 2500 reefer van, but I could go back into software.

The better question might be how often does one utilize the unique shape and capability of a pickup.

Also, define heavy. Half ton and below, sure, those are just differently-shaped SUVs to most people who own them. 3/4 ton and up are work trucks. But every truck owner finds themselves moving things you can’t move in an SUV on occasion.

I was talking about the heave ones. Past a certain weight there is a special tax preference. For example, every Mercedes dealer (it seems) has an explanation on their website pitching their G series SUV. People buy they and claim they are primarily for business, but there is very little enforcement or verification.

I’m not sure how you define heavy. If you mean larger than a half ton they’re nearly all used for things you need a truck for. People mostly don’t buy 3/4 ton trucks or larger for pleasure.

If you include a half ton, then yeah, that’s basically a differently shaped SUV to many owners.

There is a lot of short range no/limited tow commercial work that could use a BEV truck (e.g. every gardener/lawncare small business) or a BEV panel van.

Gardening/lawncare wouldn't work as well as you'd think - ride-on lawnmowers need fuel to run for extended periods, so they face the same charging problem (even though the client usually has a power outlet in their house, mere metres away). Ditto for a ton of pressurewashing equipment and such.

The problem is that we built our world around cheap portable energy, so problems that are trivial technically are difficult socially - the client won't let you use the power outlet, if they do they'll make you pay for the power use, asking is weird and unusual and requires more negotiating with the client, it's just not worth it. Like, if oil never existed then residential housing would probably be built with a special "contractor power outlet" that could be billed separately on a pay-per-use basis - call up the number, dial in your Designated Contractor Code or whatever fictional paperwork, and you get charged for the power you pull until the socket is unplugged.

Or maybe some other solution that I can't think of, because people in that world had to think of one and spent decades refining it. Or maybe they invented lithium batteries 90 years ago (~1935) and now they're on par with oil.

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