This reminds me of the time I had my laptop open on the tilt-down tray and the very large man in the seat in front just repositioned his girth (not even reclining the seat) but it flexed the seat back enough that my laptop screen was momentarily caught between the tray below and recessed lip above and was almost crushed.
There's also something about those seats where you get back pain when you try to sleep with your own seat reclined.
Though the ipad itself wasn't damaged, a couple of glasses didn't make it, and required the steward to try to brush up whatever fragments of glass they could.
I feel that airlines are a microcosm of "Do you care about who you actions might affect?" - similar to the "Do you return the cart to the corral" test at supermarkets - are you willing to put even the smallest bit of effort to significantly improve other people's experiences?
That's the root cause of the suffering here. The actions with the strongest ill effects.
This one surprises me every time I fly. When I have the aisle seat I can be up and out in 10 seconds. It seems to make like everyone else will plop down , place down 3 different liquids on the tray and then take a nap. When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance
It's your right to ask to use the bathroom whenever you need. And others have the right to use that little tray for their stuff when they want. (while allowed by the airline, of course)
Just like smoking next to others (when allowed), or reclining your seat 100% in economy. Technically it's your right to just that.
My issue on my original post isn't really them moving the seat, but the lack of notice. It would have taken barely a second to lean over the seat and let me know. But I suspect they didn't even think about how that might affect anyone else.
It would be kinda crazy if someone didn't say they wanted to get out to the aisle and just started trying to climb over you with no warning.
That said, 10 seconds is not a realistic expectation. Ask before it's an emergency.
If anything can possibly slow down flight boarding, disembarking or cleanup, they'll first try to remove it completely, and only if people object too much will they reluctantly offer it with a fee.
Pocket on the seat back -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.
Luggage -> most people need this, but not everyone -> charge a fee.
Reclining seat -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.
They do sell drinks and duty free; that's an interesting one. I guess once the flight is airborne, the flight attendants aren't really doing anything else (from management's perspective) so they might as well sell stuff. Plus the trolley blocking the aisle stops passengers from moving around, which they probably see as a big advantage.
I think this even applies to the ridiculous penalty fees they charge for e.g. trying to check in at the airport rather than doing it beforehand on the app. It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.
I got a little bit less annoyed by them when I realised this. Sure, it's still uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating, but it's all with the aim of an efficient and reliable service, and they're way better than average at that.
I found that once I tack on luggage, a seat with more space, etc.. they become more expensive than traditional airlines with the same package.
In other words, their business model really seems to be to cater to the "least hassle" passengers who travel light and don't need any extras.
I believe the airline pays the airport for every check in and luggage handling transaction. They are just cutting costs.
Ryanair makes little to no money from passengers, nowadays it's mainly from selling airplanes. They were still profitable during COVID without even carrying passengers at some point, only thanks to their flying school, which thanks to social dumping and the UE, allow them to charge 40k€ per wannabe pilot without even guaranteeing them a hire.
They booked 2000 737max, with their own special version during COVID+MCAS disaster, they paid it dirt cheap.
Then they operate them marginally, and now that the traffic has gone up again and the delay between buying and receiving a Max is about 8 years, they sell them back for a huge profit.
It's been known for ages in the industry.
The thing about buying planes is also interesting, but sounds like a sneaky business move rather than the actual foundation of the business.
I've always heard that nobody really makes money from passengers, which is why airlines are always going bankrupt, and I'm sure Ryanair's margins are super skinny. But even so, it does seem like moving passengers around is the core of their business, rather than it just being a front for something else.
Not to mention that when my wife was pregnant she could barely manage her back pain -with- the recline, never mind without.
The recline button is there for your use. You are welcome to avail of it yourself.
Same flight with someone's seat resting on your knees is downright painful.
> when my wife was pregnant
Imagine if she was a bit taller and someone reclined the seat all the way over her.
> The recline button is there for your use
You're right, like any shared resource, "space" is there for you to use. It doesn't mean you have to use it, you could try to be aware of your surroundings and assess whether your small comfort should come at the cost of someone else's extreme discomfort. And if you use the button others are also free, and probably correct, to call you a dick. Like a guy who empties the bowl of complimentary candy someone offers to all customers.
You shouldn't need physical blocks or laws to define your own common sense and decency.
But also because with any shared resource there's an expectation of decency involved. Some people just betray that expectation. They're the ones with the mentality that "they shouldn't have served alcohol if they didn't want me to get insufferably drunk", "they shouldn't have put the candy out if they didn't want me to take all of it", "why is the swing there in the park if not for my kids to use them continuously to the disappointment of other kids".
When your wife was pregnant someone probably let her go ahead in a queue, have her some priority for something, etc. That was a person with common sense and decency, not asking "why do queues exist", who doesn't do something only if there's a law about it.
Your "dysfunctional people pleasing" is someone else's "not being a total dick". As I said, there's no law against it. It's all about character and education (or lack thereof). Some people even think they must brag about it because why else would they have a mouth and keyboard.
A question you can always ask yourself is "should I do it just because I can do it?". It will stop you from being needlessly inconsiderate many times, and maybe even make you a better person.
I never get these discussions. It's only ever online that I see complaints. Almost everyone reclines on long flights. It's normal. It's expected. If it makes you uncomfortable that's a you problem, everyone else seems fine with it. If it makes you physically uncomfortable, pay for extra leg room. Don't make your problem the problem of another passenger.
That's a skewed conclusion you're drawing. Are you really surprised that people aren't willing to risk escalating the situation on a plane, arguing with what's likely the very inconsiderate person in front of them? Most people have an aversion to conflict. It doesn't mean "they're fine with it". You probably don’t advertise in real life how much you lean back and not care who’s behind you out of fear that people will change your opinion of you. Real life is a harsh mistress.
I've bumped into people and they said "sorry", do you think they wanted me to bump into them, liked it, and actually believed it was their mistake? No, I just tower at close to 2m so they didn't want to escalate the situation.
P.S. I always look at who sits behind me, if they're "space constrained" or not, and almost always ask if I can recline. Sometimes I don't bother, clearly the person will suffer. Sometimes they said "I'd rather not, thank you". Many times they said "fine". I used to fly a lot and my experience was very clearly not that "everyone is fine". I was never fine even if I didn't start arguing. So how would you have known?
I've discussed this with various people IRL. No one, including taller people than me, ever complained about people being inconsiderate for reclining. Every tall person complains about leg room.
The vast majority of people do not think it's inconsiderate to recline. They think it's normal and that the function is there for a reason.
I actually think it's inconsiderate to complain to the person in front if they want to recline. The only time that is acceptable is when meals are served.
Nor I. TFA is about a chess bot, yet here we are discussing seat reclining etiquette.
At least we aren’t discussing ad blockers for the 18th time this week.
Ah, the exact opposite of the "pay it forward" principle...
Medium haul flights sound like a dream to us slumming down the bottom of the planet.
At least we have Elon giving us decent wifi now. Doha > Auckland at the moment.
Granted, I've only flown American and Delta, maybe other airlines are worse in this respect?
My legs are proportionately longer than my upper body which increases the negative effect.
Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something? If so I suppose that's understandable.
When I can, I pay for extra leg room or get an aisle seat.
My opinion is strongly that seats should not be reclined. It is inconsiderate.
But maybe in the future I'll make a point of checking whether the person behind me is in the 95th percentile of adult male heights before reclining.
It would be interesting to know the numbers on this. Height is not going to tell the answer though, you as people of the same height have wildly variably limb length.
I know half a dozen people who have the same issue and they vary from 1.9-2.1m tall.
I don't work in a circus.
Short people would seem likely to be comfortable in more places.
Shoe get destroyed very fast, I’m not sure what it is and my feet aren’t that large (UK 12 or 13) but 6 months tops, and they are in pieces.
The internet has alleviated that for me, but if it hasn't for you -- look for pants with a large hem, and learn some basic sewing skills. It's occasionally possible to add an inch or more of length with the right pair.
So it is kind of frustrating to me with people like in this thread explicitly saying "I do not care, I will recline my seat, it is not my problem if someone else suffers, they are just being entitled".
Yes and also for people with long legs, seated in a typical airline seat, their knees will be significantly higher than the top of the seat cushion. So, they get caught up in the sweep of a reclining seatback ahead.
Not OP. Yes.
I flew from DFW to Sydney on a flight that was not fully booked. They made an announcement for a $150 upgrade to have an entire row to yourself. Once in the air, all of the armrests could be raised to allow you to lay flat. $150/17hours ~= $9/hour for a comfortable-ish sleep on a long haul flight. That's better math than the app subscription model threads have.
Three other people also booked it and I didn’t get it. Qatar airways.
And if anyone is finding they have to help out in emergency seats on the regular, please tell us which airline.
For others like me, one trick is to at most minimally use the under seat storage: small handbags only. No backpacks, briefcases, or anything else big enough to hold a laptop. Then, you can put your feet in that space. This lowers my knees by 1-2 inches depending on the plane, which really matters. It's the only thing that helps significantly, aside from paying for premium economy. Doesn't help with the claustrophobia, but there's not much to be done about that.
The other things I've tried (that don't reliably work) are leaning forward from the seat back (to pull my knees back) and slouching slightly (so that the inevitable recline compresses the seat back into my knees rather than bashing them). The former saves my knees, but sacrifices my back. The latter kind of helps during the flight, but walking will still hurt the next day.
Oh, interesting. I've always done that, it never really occurred to me that others might not. Even if you have a bigger bag you can always take it out during the flight to make space for your feet. That, plus crossing my legs allows me to have my legs flat against the chair (and therefore my knees well below the level where the person in front reclining would make much difference).
It's easier to just pack my laptop (plus anything I might use during the flight) in my overhead bin carry-on. It's a real pain to actually get anything out of there, but a paperback book or ebook reader will fit in a coat pocket or small handbag -- and that's all I truly need on the plane. Plus, the airline won't be able to force you to check your overhead carry-on that way since the laptop has lithium batteries in it.
and there lies the rub.
If I put my knees together and sit up straight (back hard against my seat), my knees are hard against the seat in front. They can’t recline. It doesn’t even hurt, the seat just won’t move. Last flight someone turned around and complained then complained to the stewardess. I’m not sticking my legs into my neighbours space, am the time I extended into the aisle I fell asleep and got knee capped by a trolley.
‘Where would you like me to put my legs?’
I’m writing this from a plane seat, having paid for extra room and having been bumped by the airline. That’s nz$1000 gone and 17 hours of misery.
Qatar. Never again.
Aside: I also don’t recline without any empty seat or sleeping person behind.
the recline feature should be baked in to this as well
Didn't blame him, lesson learned, and I move my own seat back very slowly now.
As a reasonably tall person I have never reclined my seat and will forever consider anyone who does an asshole.
The very fact that you can but don’t do something is the precise space where assholeness is defined.
If an airline needs to force you to be a decent person, then you have no right to claim decency in the first place.
People who lean their seats back are assholes. Claiming “but this is permitted!” proves my point.
I can’t imagine what a nightmare world it would be if decency were only possible through the exercise of external authority.
That is also a decent and unselfish thing to do.
I don't lean back on flights, but I don't consider the person in front of me an asshole for doing it.
Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?
No, being doormat that never judges assholes is not necessary in order to be a decent person.
In fact, there is special category of decent person heroes who do the uncomfortable thing, judge assholes and even protect and help others when assholery becomes too much. Both when talking about recliners and like, terrorizing thugs in streets.
> Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?
It is not being selfish to not want to give your space to an asshole who decided to take it. That person is still an asshole. And again, both when we are talking about recliner and when certain government sends violent thugs.
Clearly, many HN users, as well as much of the population, disagree with you.
You may want to re-evaluate your moral values.
Airline fares are very cheap. Just the other day they compared the cost of flying from London to Calcutta decades ago vs now - much cheaper now. You'll see the same when you compare domestic flights.
Yes, it's true that you had more leg room back then. Now you have the option to pay the same high fares and get similar leg room, or be cheap and get less leg room.
Classic example of "more choice leads to more dissatisfaction".
You get woken up at your destination after they've taken you off the plane. It would be the closest thing you can get to teleportation.
Then the airline wouldn't have to fuss with preparing shitty food and coffee or deal with annoying passengers. A win for everyone!
I understand why she wanted to lean back. And yet, when she did, it freaking hurt. I'm around the 80th percentile in height in the US, and while my doctor says I could lose a few pounds, I wear a men's large shirt so I'm not exactly enormous. Even though they seat can technically recline, you cannot convince me that they're actually meant to.
Edit: also, if the airline can't deal with a certain percentile of the population under their normal product, they should figure out how to make it happen. It's discrimination to not account for tall people
Neat. Now what do I do?
Typed from a 17 hour flight to New Zealand.
It’s kind of like a yoga studio with mats 3 feet apart when they use to be 6. You’re allowed, and encouraged, to spread your arms out wide, but now if you do you’re going to have a hand in your neighbor’s face. The yoga studio laughs at the visitors arguing about whether one’s an asshole for using their arm space, or for telling others to stop slapping them in the face, when the whole thing is their fault.
I can live with the person behind me thinking I’m an asshole.
The airline offers the facility and I won’t sacrifice my own needs for fear of upsetting a stranger.
I suspect they’re not the only person around you who thinks you’re an asshole.
But when you find yourself in an uncomfortable group situation, it’s good to ask how you can make it better for everyone, or at least not worsen it. “I paid so I’m doing whatever it takes to not inconvenience myself in the slightest” is the origin of “this is why we can’t have nice things”.
It’s different when there’s a compelling physical need here. If the person in front of me has a hurt back and can’t bear sitting upright, and I knew about it, I’d put up with it as best I can in the interest of we’ve all got to get along. But in the scheme of things, not that many people are unable to sit up and not crush their neighbors.
How would you know whether or not the person in front of you has a compelling physical need? Are they supposed to explain their health concerns to you in the hope that you deem it sufficiently acceptable for them to do what they can to be comfortable? It’s unreasonable to expect someone in physical pain to suffer the indignity of explaining themselves to someone they don’t know.
It may well be an inconvenience to you if someone chooses to recline their seat but nobody owes you an explanation. Expecting them to justify themselves to you isn’t a reasonable stance. And given that you don’t know what someone is going through, whether they have a hidden disability, whether they’re in chronic pain, I really wouldn’t advise asking, let alone shouting at them.
- the internet connection is excellent (even in most tunnels) so you can work, have video meetings, etc, not to mention play chess online
Just like how sometimes when you're flying over the rockies or into canada you just don't get internets. There's still middles of no where out there. Often not very far from the freeway.
Also starlink.
However if you only compare the shorter distance rail in those places to what the US has some of the other trains are actually pretty good. Even then though Chicago's trains are a better comparison than anything Amtrak offers
The ICE trains in particular are magnificent, and a worthy alternative to air travel.
Yes people do it all the time in Europe. It mostly works. However if you follow the space at all you will see a lot of stories about things going wrong - far more than there should be. Amtrak is mostly fine in the US, but there are still far more problems than there should be.
I mean, maybe you had a different experience. In my experience in the northeast , the internet service is about as reliable and consistent as the trains themselves (ie not consistent, garbage fire)
Also one way cost like $1,200.
That sucks.
I'm still sad the movie projectors are gone from the planes, also the little curtains for the windows, and the carve at your seat prime rib service.
We do. United has just positioned their economy products a hair below Delta by, in part, pulling off crap like this.
Perhaps this is the real reason why they call themselves "Delta".