Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

Perhaps people in the future will visit the US for the dieselpunk nostalgia, the same way people like seeing classic cars in Cuba.

Yes, not to mention the fact that Chinese EVs can't be sold here... protectionism for weak American companies that can't compete globally. We've gone from an automotive superpower and the land of Henry Ford to the government propping up automakers and depriving Americans of free choice. If Chinese cars would actually be allowed to sold here they would sell like Toyota Camrys.

Car enthusiast here. I raced in Formula Ford in Europe in my younger days. I still dream about the day I drove a 911 GT2. Nearly every car I’ve ever owned has been a manual.

But with the ridiculous tax incentives here in Australia (at least while they last), my new car turned out to be an EV. Specifically the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. And let me tell you, while the logical part of my brain knows that the gear shifts and the exhaust notes and everything about it is “fake”, when I’m driving it around a track or a challenging B road, every part of my body is fooled into thinking it’s real. And reluctant as I might be to admit it, it might just be the most fun car I’ve ever had

Is it perfect? No. I wish it was 10cm lower to the ground. I wish it was at least 600kg lighter. But it has completely disabused me of the notion that electric cars can’t be fun.

I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

There are multiple other factors for the relatively low adoption of EVs compared to China.

EVs are sold as a luxury product in the US. ICE cars are familiar, convenient (no need to figure out how to install a home charger), and otter cheaper (lower initial cost, service is cheaper, value maintains for much longer, etc). I bought electric, but I recognize it's a privilege to be able to do so.

If competitively priced EVs hit the market, consumers would buy them in much bigger numbers. Manufacturers want to use EVs as a way to redefine themselves and make more money and seemingly the industry is colluding to keep them premium with a shorter shelf life.

I'm a "car enthusiast" and even I understand that holding onto ICE is like holding onto horses because cowboys look cool. It is a distilled macho culture like those old Marlboro ads.

I am in Portugal right now. You know something we don’t have often here? Garages.

For example in my neighborhood most cars are parallel parked, people are living in centuries old houses converted into high density condos, there are no garages.

So what is more practical, charging your car overnight without an electric plug or going to the gas station for a few minutes?

EU automaters fail at making modern cars. They just put a bunch of screens in there with awful software. If you go all screens, just commit like Tesla. If you can't beat Tesla, just stick with minimal screens and use buttons.

Somewhere between 2010 and 2020, most automakers went crazy with their designs and it went all downhill from there.

> And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations.

Not sure if you have realized this, but we have a pretty decent numbers of horse enthusiasts now.

This is exactly so. Not only is the USA hurting itself by distancing itself from it's former allys in policy and trade but it's forcing the rest of the world including EU to look more towards east for trade partners and temporarily for military support until Germany rearms itself.

Canadians already took the lead and are now taking steps to let Chinese EV manufacturers into the Canadian markets with less tax/tariff.

Meanwhile Europe is still struggling a lot with coming to terms with new world order. They've been sucking up to the USA too long since the WW2. German economy is largely dependant on car manufacturing and China is threatening this. But something is going to have to give now.

Are you talking about ICE car enthusiasts only? For general car modders and enthusiasts, it may take a few more generations of production releases before more crop up, but I think more EV car enthusiasts will emerge after more and lower cost EV powered systems come out from factory systems optimized for higher volume. With that sheer amount of gear accessible over time, custom makers and mod products will find ways to modify and reassemble it.

I get the impression that what the Chinese want out of a car is different and, realistically, a bit more aligned with the trajectory of human progress as well.

I remember the (UK) Top Gear episode, which I'd guess must be at least 15 years old now, where they were talking about Chinese car brands, like Roewe, and they were ripping on them for being a bit crap in various ways (performance, not that fun to drive, etc.), but they also highlighted that what's important to Chinese car buyers is equipment level and having the latest tech[0] so, even though the cars at the time weren't the best, they were packed with gadgets and creature comfort.

Add 15 years of rapid progress onto that and it's not surprising that China is dominating in the EV space, because it aligns so well with what Chinese buyers might be looking for in a vehicle.

[0] And having seen what traffic jams in Chinese cities can look like it entirely makes sense to optimise for comfort and engagement whilst sitting still or in stop go traffic, than for driving experience when you're never really going to experience the handling anyway.

> Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts”

actually I think there are two strange things going on.

Tesla has completely dominated acceleration vs ice cars. The model S can dor 0-60 in (admittedly fudged) 1.99 seconds. The model 3 performance has 500 or 600 horsepower.

This has created lots of EV enthusiasts.

BUT - they have also been screwing things up.

By taking away displays like the dashboard in model 3, or controls like drive select, turn signals and putting everything on the touchscreen... there's a really terrible UI. Who can be an enthusiast without being part of the car control equation?

as a wannabe "car enthusiast", I'd happily buy a fun EV if one existed for a reasonable price. the xiaomi su7 for example looks incredible, and I'd jump on that if sold here in the US in a heartbeat.

but for the majority of people, yeah, I don't think they really care either way. if we had the infrastructure and EVs were sold at the prices that people are seeing for the Chinese EVs, I think they'd switch away from ICE fairly easily.

I want that throaty Lotus Exige shame only 260s legal in US. No electric for me not because I'm against it but I love that sound, real sound. I know Tesla Plaid can do 0-60 in 1.9 but so can Corvette C8. Not that Exige is that powerful but it's a sexy car.

This is awesome to me https://youtu.be/0c9prOTdp_M?si=r0q3vqohdVNw7HpF&t=181

How many generations are we even into cars?

Maybe 4ish? Most kids alive but not yet driving are likely to own only hybrid ma or electrics.

Seems like a relatively short term problem overall.

The top selling vehicle in the world is a US EV? I think we're behind the point where all vehicles can be EV's, we still need ICE for certain things, but the US is arguably the only other country in the world where we produce EV's competitive with China

Car enthusiasts never disappear, but they will be a small part of the market just like always.

EU car manufacturers decided that cheaper-to-make electric cars must be sold as luxury vehicles and failed to achieve economies of scale China did with their underwhelming initial models they kept improving relentlessly every year.

Well, currently US _are_ ICE enthusiasts, lamentable as that may be.

The US controls the oil monopoly, where as China controls battery minerals.

The US can’t compete in electric vehicles solely due to lack of control over the complete supply chain.

Nothing is done ever. Remember when the U.S. deeply feared Japan's rapidly growing economy?

Whenever I read or hear definitive statements like that I heavily bet on the other side.

I'm not a car enthusiast. Unfortunately, I'm also not a phone-on-wheels enthusiast either.

Not that many Americans are car enthusiasts. The most popular cars have been basic commuters for decades.

It has everything to do with regulation and almost nothing to do with "car enthusiasts".

> Practicality beats enthusiasm for 95% of car use.

About two years ago I rented an electric car for a few days. I felt like I wasted a ton of time finding a charging station, jumping through phone app hoops to get the charging process started, and then waiting for the car to charge. I've stayed away from electric rentals since, even though they're often cheaper.

“Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts”

Who told them?

> Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete with the Chinese.

Huh? This comment sounds extremely America-centric to me. Porsche sells more cars into Europe than North America, despite taking a bigger there (-13-16% vs 0%)!

In general I don't think Porsche is representative of the car market as a whole, given their cars are all premium sports cars to at least some degree.

If you want more representative numbers look at more mass-market manufacturers. Notably, the Volkswagen group has a huge 20%+ market share in the EU, while it is below 5% in the USA. Renault is another example of a strong EU-centric brand and manufacturer with over 10% market share, even over 25% at home in France. Ford is a good example of the opposite, having 13% market share in the USA and only 2-3% here. Stellantis is strong in both markets, but has significant differentiation, even having different brands in both markets.

The technologies were developed in Europe and the USA.

Please share how unions sabotaged automation efforts. As far as I can tell, unions are losing every fight these days.

> Unions sabotaged automation efforts and limited hours worked.

It's completely rational for unions, and the workers, to prevent automation. The short term results of automation are only negative for workers, and positive for every other part of the market (customers, suppliers, capitalists). The results might be positive in the long run, but why should only one group suffer.

Perhaps, the capital-owning class could make the deal positive for the workers by giving the workers ownership of a substantial portion of the firm. Then whats good for the firm would become good for workers, and the union would not oppose automation so much.

>every week I see a new Chinese brand on the road

And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models.

With the big boys like Ford, Toyota etc I can trust that they manufactured (and still manufacture) parts with warehouses full of them and I can always find the part I need to repair a vehicle.

I very much doubt that we will see the same thing with Chinese auto companies, even premier ones like BYD.

In Europe there's plenty of Chinese cars to be honest.

And they often outsell European cars price-to-price, even through tariffs. It's crazy.

The whole topic of tariffs on their cars is also very complicated that European automakers aren't in favour of, because large parts of their sales come from outside Europe.

thanks, how is the consumer response ? they love it ? quality is good ? and prices too ?

Especially as Toyota seems structurally unable to create a good EV. They produced one completely bare-bones model 30 years ago and never expanded past that. At least they're keeping some knowledge of the parts by having PHEVs, but I don't think they're on the leading edge of anything. Maybe they don't need to be and can buy everything from other suppliers, but they're going to be doing a whole lot less than they currently do and not sure they'll keep their profit margin.

Have you seen the paint schemes on new Chinese cars? Wow. Embedded glitter, chameleon colors, while the European car industry is doing boring primer like paint schemes. I always joke that they applied clear coat onto primer. And that's on >60k models.

Parity? Their EVs are streets ahead, doubly so for the price.

Have you ever ridden in a BYD? It's super loud, horrible suspension, seats are extremely uncomfy, everything is cheap with a fancy looking facade. If you need a car to go from point A - B and can't afford any luxury, it's fine. But it's a bare minimum vehicle with looks to appeal to status.

In terms of quality they are there, now it's expansion. I, for one, am quite excited for all this competition. I don't care who makes my level 4/5 self driver, I just want it now.

I remember when Japan was supposed to take over the world in the '80s, to the point that "back to the future 2" had Americans speaking Japanese to their managers.

Toyota did become the dominant producer, but American and European car makers (and now Koreans and Chinese) are still around. I wouldn't bet on total domination from China anytime soon.

https://www.ft.com/content/6474a1a9-4a88-4f76-9685-f8ccb080d... : "Renault to team up with French defence group to make drones for Ukraine"

I don't think the deindustrialization narrative is quite as bad as the doomers would have it, although it's notable that both sides in the Ukraine war depend on Chinese drone electronics.

(we've also forgotten the nuclear war narrative of the 80s: it's irrelevant if you can build a bomber in 63 minutes if it only takes the ballistic missiles 43 minutes from launch to arrival, at which point the war or at least industrial society is over)

What do you mean?

Most advancements in robotics have been for highly generalized robots. We’ve been using robotics to build cars for like 50+ years. They’re extremely good.

I don’t think this is accurate, Chinese firms are increasingly moving up the quality chain. You might want to look at some of the reviews of Xiaomi’s recently launched car. Also, Tesla Shanghai is one of their best factories, much better quality scores than Fremont iirc.

Having a totally local, integrated supply chain pays dividends in a lot of ways, as does leading in production volume. Tim Cook also gave that interview where he was just talking about the incredibly deep bench of industrial talent that you just can’t find outside China at this point - that labor cost wasn’t why they produced there.

The (potential, no experience) quality issues are to me far outweighed by the enabling of yet another country to become a superpower which will then sooner or later result in yet another confrontation. Russia should have taught at least Europe that this sort of trade can only backfire in the longer term. Yes, I realize, China is the world's factory now, but there is no reason that can not change. I'm trying really hard to buy European made products and to use European services where possible. There are still a couple of hard nuts to crack but I'll get there.

Nothing to do with quality. It's all image.

When Americans discover again how crappy their cars are compared to what's available elsewhere, like we did with Japan, there will be a reckoning once more. And again American cars will become the laughing stock they really are.

In the meantime, this incredibly short sighted protectionism will end just like the last round did. Further hollowing out our industrial base and permanently giving away large parts of a massive market.

And I'm sure all of the people involved in this insanity will want a bailout too.

Chinese electronics manufacturing now is like Japan in the 60s/70s - I give it like a decade max before "Made in China" is widely understood to mean "High Quality" rather than the "Cheap Junk" connotation it still has today.

Selling the most cars will eventually translate into making the best cars, with the compounding experience and network effects.

No its the other way. In 4x4 They cannibalised the GM-Holden Colorado chassis production line in Thailand when GM exited that market, have refitted it with chinese made electronics and shell, and have complete quality parity. Actually a few people think the engine is better, and I am forced to agree. One of the colorado downstream models I tested had a better turning circle. They also tend to pack in all the "extras" other brands put on as standard. Consumers face a choice between cheaper and better vs tried and true brand loyalty. And brand loyalty has a limit tbh.

This was once said about Japanese cars. I don’t want a Chinese car now, but I probably will not too long from now.

The quality angle was true 10 years ago, but that's no longer the case. Chinese cars are now superior in some areas and inferior in others (you can feel that some finishing is incomplete), but on average (and especially considering the price) they're better. The gap in the inferior areas is very small, and I wouldn't be surprised if they fully surpass European cars this year, given the new models they're releasing.

I grew up hearing the same thing about the Japanese back in the 60s and 70s. That didn't last though.

People are buying £60000 BYD cars left and right. That's quite an expensive car.

The upper quartile are in the US and they're not allowed to buy Chinese cars, so you are right by default.

That notwithstanding, Xiaomi cars are nicer than Teslas. They're called "the Apple of China" for a reason.

>Try driving 240+ km/h with any other large-volume-production car, you'll be sweaty.

This is just very much not true, Audi, Mercedes,Toyota, BMW breeze through it, hell my friends audi S4 from 2004 regularly shoots 240+ over the autobahn, and we never break a sweat.

> Try driving 240+ km/h

This is an entertainingly German-centric answer.

Having driven a Macan EV recently, it was nothing but annoying coming from years of Porsche driving. Too many unnecessary changes from what was there standard controls. Too much screen use.

That is interesting. Thanks for sharing I was interested in trying out a Porsche. Do the oil changes and other maintenance items cost significantly more than other makers?

In terms of features I see on high end cars… (no clue if these are available in Chinese cars, just to help you get an idea of what exists)

1. Backup camera with lines that move as you turn the wheel

2. Camera setup that lets you see how close you are to curbs, other cars, etc. from a plethora of unexpected angles (you can get a top-down view of your car! Pretty cool.)

3. Automatic parking when parallel parking

4. “Reverse actions” feature, where you press a button after very carefully getting into a spot, and the car replays it in reverse to get you out of said spot

5. Lots of remote features tied to an app. The ability to look through cameras, auto-record videos when people get close, lock and unlock and view status of the car. Remote tracking via GPS in case it’s stolen.

6. Turn on your turn signal, your dash changes to a live video feed of that side of the car

7. Chairs with heating and cooling, massaging, and auto-inertia-damping features

8. Bluetooth and Apple CarPlay plus Android auto

9. Road-scanning cameras which adjust suspension live based on upcoming road conditions

10. Crash preparation features like Benz’s Pink Noise or auto-recording a minute of video to assist with crash investigations

There are probably may I’m forgetting.

> What kind of stuff is missing?

I'm in the market for buying a new car, either EV or hybrid. Currently have a Audi, been looking at various BYD models, particularly the new Touring one.

One important feature, that I didn't know I needed before I tried it, was in-seat AC, where the air from the AC hits the back and bottom, instead of just your arms and face. Living in a warm country, and spending most of the time in the car during the summer, this feature is something I really want now.

Heading to Audi and asking what the cheapest model available with that feature? Around 70K EUR. Doing the same but going to BYD: 35K EUR. And that's just considering that single feature, the same happens for almost everything. Want a HUD in the windshield? Audi adds 5K to the price, with BYD it's in the middle variants and up.

Basically, you get the same amount of "features" for half the price, and it's hard to just say "Well, I'm a fan of Audi so that's worth the markup". Still, there are many decisions that go into purchasing a car, not just the features, but I think that explains why you see that argument come up, because they do offer more features for cheaper than at least what the European car makers do.

I think a few things.

1. They do not have robust self-driving capability. At this level of expense I expect hands-free major highway driving.

2. They’ve removed a lot of physical buttons that improve quality of life, the level of technology in the cabin is simply overwhelming.

3. They’ve done a great job with the driving experience of the EVs but they have poor range relative to the competition.

See this MKBHD video for an idea of features in Chinese EVs.

https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI

I don't want to make an exhaustive list, the summary is that standard features on many new cars are expensive options on Porsche's. And that's if they're available at all. Adaptive cruise control is one example.

Where I live, luxury cars are just status now. I don't think that's enough to keep gen Z and gen A interested.

Clearly porsche is missing the built in karaoke.

You're just religious about your own preferences.

Prosche specifically is facing huge losses, and with this strategy is doomed to die. There are already rumors of potential bancrupcy.

EVs grew 20% globally in 2025, with developing markets surging 40%+. When EVs under $100,000 can hit sub-2.5-second 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h), all this fake "benefit" talk about exhaust notes and luxury engine refinement sounds exactly like people cheering for Vertu golden buttons at the dawn of the iPhone era.

EVs are growing incredibly fast—despite the West's biggest EV supplier deciding to commit marketing harakiri by alienating half its customer base.

New battery tech has made EVs affordable, and that's why adoption will keep accelerating in China, the EU, and the rest of the world. There'll be some irrelevant fluctuations in the US, but those will eventually even out regardless—because the rest of the world and technological progress will move on with or without them.

we are on the edge of go-to-market of billions of dollars of investments into battery development. It will deliver both much cheaper where needed and more capable batteries on the market. Guess what it will do with legacy cars.

> But Porsche is known for engaging driver's cars, and without the visceral sounds and vibrations of an engine it is bland and boring. The flaws in a gas engine's power curve give it character

Personally I experienced this the strongest in my friend's restored mk3 Ford Escort. I recall it as a feeling of not actually being inside a car due to the wind and engine noise.

Meanwhile the BMW 5 Series I rented a while ago didn't provide any of those feelings. Granted, it was a diesel automatic, but when I floored it, it just went and the engine noise was barely noticeable - at least compared to my poorly noise insulated daily Toyota.

The best thing about that car was that I could take my family on a 400km trip, the last 100km of which were mountain roads and not even break a sweat.

The thing is, driving on the road is not supposed to be fun. One should go to a racetrack (or simulator) to have fun.

Unless you live in a really remote and desertic place, there are just too much people on the road nowadays.

As much as I'm gung-ho about the world electrifying transport, I agree with you here. Those Porsche SUV's just look awful, whatever the drivetrain. If I'm gonna splurge on a Porsche, I'll want the real thing. And if I don't want a 911, well there are a lot of other brands making more sensible vehicles.

(Of course, if a lot of other people share my extremist views, that's pretty bad for Porsche the company. They likely can't survive just producing 911's. Oh well, I'm not here for corporate charity anyway.)

Nowadays the 718 might be more of a Porsche than the 911

Porsche is loosing billions and people start talking they are caput(bancrupt) :)

No. These cars are desirable and valuables as collectibles for the very reason they are a dying breed and we can't won't make them as they used to.

Not sure if you have been into an appliance shop lately, but for any given appliance there are options in every price bracket.

According to (enthusiast) car magazines, Porsche BEVs are still better at being Porsches than most of the competition.

Making things that...track better than an appliance.

Trends and perceptions can change fast in China's market.

(NYTimes - Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China)[https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-ge...]

This is not a market disruption, this is a supply chain change that is not going to be delayed by artificial tariffs or other protectionist attempts.

Post COVID was getting back to what was before, this is the equivalent of the introduction of Ford mass production techniques on the previous industry of coach building.

ICE engine parts are a major ongoing expense but also profit centre for dealers and an entire industry on their own.

So there's entire supply chains that will be disrupted.

How many engine plants are going to be needed going forward?

Australia went through this wrench back in 2014 when our local car industry collapsed after the government withdrew a measly amount in annual subsidies.

Fortunately it was a 3 year process that played out that allowed adjustments.

That had a major knock on effect of the loss of roughly 50K manufacturing jobs and industries had to pivot.

The US/EU/JP manufacturers are having trouble pivoting, the US because its car industry is entirely about trucks/SUVs, EU because its premium for manufacturing is rapidly eroding, and JP because they seem to be having trouble actually manufacturing EVs.

CN and KR is where the leaders are now.

Lights with LEDs are likely to not need maintenance.

Suspension and tyres might actually need more frequent maintenance because of the extra weight of an EV.

But how often does suspension require actual maintenance?

Evidence so far says they are not a gamble at all, and common (required?) eight year warranties on 80% life remaining are on all BEVs, plus record show that BEVs tend to to retain that 80% range at ten years. The gamble might be in whether the batteries have manufacturing defects, but warranty and recalls cover that, and as Samsung showed, can happen to even smaller, cheaper items.

Doesn't it include PHEV cars? I don't spot EV Porsches too often in one of central European capitals.

The Taycan is the ev version of the Panamera. They are in the grand tourismo category. Aka 4 doors, plenty of storage space, great for traveling.

Yes they are very functional compared to a 911. No they don’t drive like a 911.

Do they drive better than an Audi A7, Mercedes GT, BMW 8 series? That is debatable.

Also Porsche SUVs regularly rank at the top of luxury SUV reviews. I've never driven one but the consensus is that they're great - it's not just badge engineering.

Car enthusiasts caring about the driving experience doesn't just mean drivability. Engine sound is a huge part of it. All the classic Porsche 911 have flat-6 engines which make a distinctive sound that is totally part of the brand.

FTR I don't care about this myself, I'm happy with my EV. But the importance of this aspect is easily missed by people not part of the target demographic.

Consumers don't realize they are getting the worst of both worlds with added weight, complexity, repairs, inefficiency, and costs along with potential reliability (ex-Toyota) Not to mention studies that show PHEV owners frequently don't plug in.

I wonder if fake hybrids [1] were counted as well.

[1] https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/toyota-accuses-rivals-of-s...

> I never understood the big push for full EVs over hybrid.

Being able to shed the ICE bits from the car's powertrain eliminates multiple entire classes of maintenance burden. With hybrid and EREV you get the problems of both types of powerplant and drivetrain, and even though ICE has evolved to be fairly reliable, it's still a very complicated assembly and basic wear-and-tear still is still a challenge.

There will probably be parts of the country where hybrid or EREV make sense for some period of time due to the distances involved and the incredible energy density of gasoline, but a lot of the driving that happens day to day can already be handled with pure EVs as long as you have a 120V plug accessible to your car.

Don't most people already have a plug in their garage? All mine certainly have. There's no need to get full EVSE for most people, a 2.4kW outlet as found almost everywhere outside North America will easily handle daily driving needs for anyone who's not in a travelling job.

Also if everyone in your neighbourhood turning on a space heater strains the grid you have bigger problems.

Utilities have plenty of ways to solve that. We already have electric water heaters on demand controlled circuits and electricity billing that incentivises off-peak use.

And as for range? 400km is plenty for all but one trip a year, if that's an issue for your use perhaps EVs are not for you.

Every time an EV driver charges their car at home, a gas station loses a customer.

Eventually this compounds and gas stations start closing.

That accelerates the switch to EVs because gas becomes hard to find. Which accelerates gas station closures, and so on.

The point at which it becomes impractical to drive a gas-fuelled car is approaching. It will hit different countries at different times, but it's there. 10 years, 30 years, whatever, but it's coming.

Long before that point, a hybrid is just an EV that has to carry around a chunk of useless engine that is hard to fuel.

> BEVs require you to add a plug to your garage to get a rapid refuel

You hardly ever need a rapid refuel in your garage though. That's where your car spends most of its hours.

And most of the world has 220/240v mains supply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country. Regular wall outlets can charge a car fast enough outside North America.

The main issue will always be price. Whether that's purchase price, resale, or maintenance. Even the budget brand cars from South Korea and Ford can figure out the basics of interior/exterior design where customers are happy. That mostly just leaves the price and it's only gone up.

Car prices have increased well above the rate of inflation over the last decade and even used cars are more expensive than ever. Average new car price is $50k, mostly because EVs are so expensive https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a69047202/average-new-car-...

A bit sad that you're in the industry and you don't understand why pure EVs are better than hybrids.

Full EVs: Less moving parts = less maintenance required = less issues to worry about (think no oil changes, no timing belt changes, no spark plug replacements, no belt/filter changes, no exhaust system checks, etc).

Also zero emissions = better air quality around you.

Bonus: it's like waking up with a full take of gas every morning

I've owned my full EV for almost 10 years now and had 0 maintenance done whatsoever (apart from tire rotation and window wiper fluid replacement). I would never go back to an ICE vehicle.

>> I never understood the big push for full EVs over hybrid

Weight, space and reliability.

Dragging that generator (and fuel) around costs weight and space, reducing range. Exhaust, fuel tank, radiator- all the support systems the ICE motor needs. Which leaves less space for batteries, which reduces range.

Plus, the maintenance burden is still there. All those ICE parts still need all the maintainence etc that full ICE needs. One of the joys of EV is that maintainence is sooo much simpler.

So yes, hybrid is much more efficient than gas only, but a poor cousin of full EV.

By contrast full EV has range limitations. And yes distances in Europe are much shorter than the US. No that's less of an issue there. But even there we're seeing range go up, and charging come down.

I rented a hybrid recently while my car was in for a service. Picked it up, drove home (25 mins on motorway) then returned it the next day. It spent all of that time burning petrol while popping up notices about all the reasons it couldn’t use electricity right now (too cold, too fast etc).

All ICE cars should have been hybrid from 5-10 years ago but it is a stepping stone we should already be stepping off.

Its not an unsurmountable problem as Americans think. Just works like how you plug in your phone. Most of the world has electricity at home.

My uncle works in the industry and was getting a new car recently. His two options were all electric or all ICE, because from his experience, EHEVs have the problems of both ICE and BEV vehicles.

This comes off like "I never understood why not everyone still uses landlines".

Well, a hybrid doesn't solve the problem. We don't need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, we need to zero them out. You can't do that if you sometimes burn gas.

I believe the only non-plug in hybrid they make is the 911 with the T-Hybrid system in it. It uses motors to assist performance, but is not a plug-in.

It’s probably just an incredibly small number of sales?

Yep. EVs are a once in a lifetime chance for EU and Chinese manufacturers to catch up again or even leapfrog Toyota. Until recently Toyota was 20 years ahead wrt reliability and upkeep.

Soon, battery weight and performance will be the main differentiator of vehicles.

Counterpoint. After driving my Model 3 in 2022, a colleague bought his first non-BMW: a Tesla Model 3. His only complaints were the seat and the handling. Everything else he liked better about the Tesla.

This from someone who owned three or four BMWs.

I would hope a car that costs ~$30k more is nicer and more fun to drive.

I don't know if this is paranoia, but one fear I have for high-tech Chinese products is that if a world war were to start with China, that they'd have the ability to remotely disable these kinds of products.

I wouldn't be too concerned.

Hyundai used to be synonymous with "garbage".

No one cared to begin with. Just look up the horrors involved with Apple phones. People want their fancy devices. Doesn't matter if slave labor is involved. Doesn't matter if we need to add nets to prevent laborers from killing themselves instead of putting up with the horrible conditions we force them into.

Don't ask german car companies what they were doing between 1939 and 1945

yes, because when cars were bad and chinese brands were cheap, it was virtuous to pinpoint human rights vs 'chinese cars are yucky and i want to look cool'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_intrinsic_val...

I am very much interested in electric cars that look like normal cars. I understand the battery changes things. But why they have to shit up the design of 75% of electric cars is nonsensical to me

americans are junk in comparison

no OP, but as someone who comes from a family where German cars were king for several reasons, who have all become disillusioned and now buy Asian cars, where the reason is simple. American style corporate greed infested German auto-manufactures and it shows at every level.

It is most obvious with things like subscription services for basic function, like acceleration or the seat heaters you already paid for, but it has been present in a more insidious way for far longer, like intentionally breaking good design so that small cheap and easy to mass manufacture parts break at predictable schedules. These are then quoted to you at $900+ for a part that will cost you 60 through china, for what is a plastic mould, some magnets and a wire. The cheap replacements work just fine and last just as long.

So, over time, we've become so fed-up with it, and it is a problem present from bmw, vw, audi and beyond, that we just started going with Toyota/Hyundai or Chinese EV's etc, and no one has a gripe since. Repairs when required are cheap and easy, often easily done at home, cars drive almost if not just as well, mileage is comparable, joy of driving is comparable, overall there is simply no value left in German cars beyond the status symbol, something we care little for.

Hey. He has ancedtoal evidence he used to make a sweeping generalization about all cars based on country even though that grouping has little to no value in the cars themselves.

IMO it’s just to the point where it becomes off-topic. This article isn’t about the US vs China.

Well, they make perfect sense to buy down here in here Australia. When I replace my current seven year old ICE car, it'll either be a diesel or a petrol electric hybrid. In either case it'll be a Japanese one.

No, there are many good, valid reasons to own an ICE vehicle.

Buying a BEV in 2026 is like buying a Beta VCR when VHS is just coming out?

Early 986 Boxsters weighted ~1300kg. Newer 718 models are a tad heavier, reaching 1400kg. The ICE Macan was 1900kg and newer electric ones are 2300kg and that's for their medium sized SUV! This craziness has to stop.

Rivian will not be involved in infotainment for the most part

Their biggest brand, BYD, is also relatively the "oldest."

It's the governemt priorities, local gov in China is building EV companies, AI companies. EU governemnt, US local gov is building shelters, or people who kick out people from a shelter on a voters mood swing.

A friend from the EU visited recently. He said, "At least the Netherlands is doing much better than 10 years ago...we have lights, roads." That one sentence captures the entire mindset gap.

The bitter irony: Philips literally built ASML and TSMC, then sold both. Now those companies dominate global semiconductor supply chains while Philips sells... healthcare equipment at a loss.

And ASML is about to lose it's dominance too.

But yeah...lights on the streets. Built with Chinese LEDs. Powered by Chinese solar panels. Bought using budget deficits. In debt.

And the deficit keeps growing. Some EU countries faster, some slower. But the trend is unmistakable.

I didn’t think Harmon Kardon was Chinese?

That article throws out the wild claim “The news comes at a time when EV demand is on the decline across the car world.”

EV sales increased around 20% last year.

A 944 isn't a rear engine RWD sports car...

Yeah, such a weird comment. A 911 Turbo S is over $300k now. This car used to be low 200s for a well optioned one.

They're taking some kind of Nvidia strategy where they just charge more money for the new generation rather than making the new generation just objectively better than the previous for the same cost. The new GTS basically is a replacement for the old 911 Turbo - and at the same cost...

I was considering putting in an order for the new generation until the prices were announced. $300k is purely in exotic territory and if I am going down the exotic path, I'll gladly get something far more ridiculous. (Which is now the plan - just waiting for a carb legal one to appear on the market)

> The other has an SUV and lives in the country with bad roads; They sometimes use their porsche to commute to work and for everyday-stuff like shopping.

That blows my mind.

I guess its the same mindset as people who buy a mercedes "jeep" (don't know the product id) or range rover and live the middle of the city.

Believe it or not, people aren't buying Audis in China because they're thrifty.

China was a huge market for Audi in the past as luxury status symbol. However, now Chinese buyers are so enamored with new tech-heavy Chinese luxury cars that Audi had to go make a whole sub-brand specific to the Chinese market just to stay in the game[1].

[1] https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/double-de...

Google "Zeekr 9X" and then come back here if you still feel this way.

Watching my very, very MAGA 'friends' purchasing byd's is hilarious. I've also, of late, noticed fewer and fewer Teslas around.