Comment by keernan | Hacker News Reader

Comment by keernan | Hacker News Reader

Many of the comments lay the blame for the threat to democracy at the feet of SCOTUS and Congress for failing to act in a time of crisis to strangle the constitutional excesses of the Trump administration.

I see it much differently. I see a Constitution exposed. It's purported 'checks and balances' stripped naked. For the reality is this: the Constitution provides neither SCOTUS or Congress the ability to enforce their constitutional authorities. The Executive has sole control over the police power and military power.

And when a President is surrounded by heads of the FBI DOJ and Military who swear loyalty to the man, not the office, there is literally nothing SCOTUS or Congress can do.

SCOTUS has, thus far into the current Trump term, been very careful to rule in a manner that avoids inviting Trump to tell SCOTUS: "you've had your say, not enforce it." SCOTUS would much rather grant Trump powers that some future SCOTUS can take back. But the Executive exposing SCOTUS as barren is something that can never be undone.

The same for Congress. Congress can impeach Trump yet again. And in some imaginary world the Senate could actually find him guilty. But where is the army or police who shoot it out with Trump's FBI and military so they can walk Trump out of the West Wing in handcuffs?

The very terms of our Constitution are such that only a coup d'etat can remove a President who, surrounded by loyalists in the FBI and military, refuses to step down voluntarily.

That is my conclusion about why the Constitution is broken: it has been exposed for what it is. All we can do is wait and see how SCOTUS and Congress respond when Trump finally tells them: "Let's see you make me"

Edit: correct "...that invites Trump..." with "...that avoids inviting Trump"

If the president doesn't step down when ordered to do so lawfully, its up to the individual participants in government to obey the law and not the president. It's not that complicated.

That the American government has reached a position where it's somehow questionable whether the government and its departments should answer to congress or the president is ridiculous.

The individual participants in government demonstrate every day that they do nothing in response to Trump's literally daily illegal actions. When Trump tells SCOTUS to 'get lost' or when he cancels elections or when he declares martial law in response to some made up provocation; or when he refuses to leave office;

When any or all of these things occur, and the heads of the FBI, and ICE ( his personal police force ), and the DOJ and the military all put up a united front in support of him - what are the names of the people you are referring to who will have the physical ability to take any action against Trump?

edit: typo 'canceks'

The FBI, ICE, and the DOJ simply have no authority to decide who the President is. If an FBI agent calls up their local IRS office and asks them to redirect tax revenues to a Trump-controlled account, they're going to say no.

A military coup is always possible, but I see no reason to believe that Trump has done any of the consolidation that would be required to make that work. Military coups generally install a member of the military as the new leader.

If trump is no longer president and the military chooses to follow his orders anyway, we have a rouge military. The military that follows orders from the chain of command fights the rouge, and it at worst escalates to civil war.

That's pretty much why military is so rank and file and is trained to remain non-partisan in uniform. That scenario above is how we devolve the entire structure into fighting amongst one another. The military is under command of the Commander-in-Chief, not who they think is CiC.

Army already proven they will commit war crime with little to no pushback.

DOJ already proven they will facilitate murder and prosecute the victim.

People around president are basically worst then himself, just less insane and more coherent.

There is more than one path to the crisis. The more likely one is when Trump tells SCOTUS he is not bound by their decisions. And when the Senate fails to convict upon the ensuing impeachment, where is democracy?

Edit: Tge == The

>It's purported 'checks and balances' stripped naked. For the reality is this: the Constitution provides neither SCOTUS or Congress the ability to enforce their constitutional authorities. The Executive has sole control over the police power and military power.

If we got to a point where Trump was convicted and he then refused to step down, then yes. I'd say your interpretation is correct.

But we're not there yet. Legislature refuses to impeach (let alone convict), and the judicial branch doesn't have any direct power over the executive branch. The idea is that the judicial defines lines (which includes what the executive branch can do with police and military power. Remember that deplpoying troops in a state that does not wish it is very rare behavior), and lines stepped over comes back to the legislature to punish. So we reach the same impasse.

>But where is the army or police who shoot it out with Trump's FBI and military so they can walk Trump out of the West Wing in handcuffs?

He's no longer commander-in-chief, so an army following orders would act on orders of either the vice president turned president (VP->P) or some high standing generals to arrest trump. And this VP->P cannot simply relinquish his power to the convicted president if the VP->P is sympathetic.

If that falls apart, we are indeed in a true constitutional crisis. And likely civil war. That's why military is very strictly training to be non-partisan in uniform. And why they have stricter laws (e.g. court marshal) than a citizen.A military betraying its governments' will is textbook civil war material.

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