Sending a Weather Balloon to Space | Hacker News Reader

Sending a Weather Balloon to Space

blog.hartleybrody.com

74 pointshartleybrody27 comments

Argh. As someone who's done this and is actively involved in the UKHAS (http://ukhas.org.uk/) this article annoys me. People have been doing this stuff for years, and here we have someone who seems to just not have bothered to learn about how to track a balloon using amateur radio, GPS altitude/speed limits, best practices in terms of the parachute and balloon rigging, and most importantly this article does not once mention the FAA.

There's no indication that he was aware of FAA regulations (FAA Part 101) on this type of launch. So, no consideration of payload weight, density, ...

Also, he does appear to have use a trajectory predictor but only to figure out where he was going to get his balloon back and not for predicting the path through restricted airspace etc.

There's a large community of people out there in the UK and US who are happy to help people get started doing this sort of thing. Please shout out for assistance!

http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude...

Permission to launch a simple balloon with a camera. I mean it sound so simple, but then you might also be required to seek permission for filming if its done over a residential area. Add that with radio regulations if you are using any kind of receiver, and there might be 3 or more agencies one would need to get permissions for a simple launch.

The 'blanket' permission groups like UKHAS is however nice (if one live in the UK), and there is a loot to learn by the people there. That said, ignoring the regulations is sometimes a viable option.

So, is your point that permissions might be a nuisance so ignore them? FAA regulations exist to help ensure safe interaction between aircraft; radio regulations in part exist to minimize interference. Just ignoring them seems like a bad idea to me.

Note that UKHAS is not a 'blanket' permission group. The society exists to promote the hobby and make sure it is safe. We don't provide permission to anyone, that's up to the individual.

I was referring to the 2 main sites in Cambridgeshire which the website talked about, as it says you won't need to get your own permission for launching.

As for risk to air crafts, I would love to see some numbers. Whats the historical reason behind allowing max 2m sized balloons with a weight of 2kg, but an unmanned aircraft with the wingspan of 3m is totally fine (so long its under 20kg). What's the risk/effects of a balloon hitting a aircraft, and is it larger than say, the risk one has from meteors? I am all for regulations when it regulates a industry or when someone is pushing the boundaries on what is safe (like dropping a car Mythbuster style). However, the current regulations looks to me at least as a bit random and inconsistent (and ... dated).

Radio interference. wow, that's an old concept :). I suppose the FCC is undergoing some renewing and is slowly releasing frequencies and lowering the margins between them. The technology of handling radio interference has advanced quite a bit since the ww2/cold war where so much of the radio regulations was created, and the regulation is slowly moving forward. Know perfectly well that I will upset every licensed amateur radio operator out there, but my advice is still to take that regulation with a pinch of salt.

I guess it all depend on the details of what one do, the effect the law might have, and how much common sense one apply. What the guy did however does not sound as something that should require government permission.

Consumer GPS devices do not work above 18 km, so unfortunately even without the cell reception limitations he would not have been able to track the balloon during it's entire voyage. (They also don't work when travelling faster than 1000 mph. I believe the limitations are to prevent consumer GPS hardware from being used in things like missiles.)

I hope he manages to recover everything alright.

It's actually 1000 knots (1200 mph). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom#Legacy

It's supposed to be 1000 knots when above 60k ft. Due to laziness/cost, many GPS modules take it to mean any speed above 60k feet. Here's a list of ones that will work above 60k feet:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/GPSrcvrsvs60kft.htm

Ah yes, good catch. I knew it was something like that; I always forget knots are not mph.

Yes, that was what I was thinking, over altitude, GPS shuts off. Also I was wondering if freezing the crap out of the batteries might affect their overall charge capacity.

Reading the antics of the folks over that theregister.co.uk and their high altitude experiments (granted its mostly a lot of puns around LOHAN) what struck me was they proceed very methodically in their planning. A reasonable guide for anyone wanted to get into the space balloon business I think.

The GPS receiver doesn't shutoff. The requirement is to stop tracking.

Are these COCOM limitations based in the hardware or software of the GPS devices by the manufacturers? If it's in the software, are there not free and opensource firmwares out there that can go around such limitations?

Interesting. I've always been curious if there were limits on what these things would register. I had a speedometer app on my phone and I remember it registering about 460 mph on one of my flights.

There are some manufacturers that take those limits to be over 60K feet AND the mph limit. Others assume it to be OR.

Spark Fun sells GPS modules which can be programmed, and interfaced with telemetry systems that send data back over radio so you can get it the entire time.

They talk about GPS devices being "altitude safe". That seems to mean they work over 60K.

Its truly amazing to see how far few hundred bucks can get you this days, but can we please stop calling these stratosphere launches 'sending to space'? Is it just me or 'sending balloon to space' sounds like joke?

Seems launching another one(or even few) could be cheaper than searching for this one...

Well there is the convention that space starts at 100km up [1] but the atmosphere extends much higher just getting thinner and thinner. For a lot of people space starts when the sky is black during the 'day time' and you can see the curvature of the Earth, but of course that occurs much sooner, like 31km (~100,000') Balloons can reach 100,000' (Baumgartner jumped from 125,000' for example)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line

The definition of "near space" says it starts at 60,000ft.

Here's a list of some GPS modules that correctly implement the 18 km altitude, 515 m/s speed restriction using a logical AND, not a logical OR, and so are useful for high altitude ballooning: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules

Here's another: http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php

just curious, is it legal to just send a balloon up in the air? considering there are so many different kinds of planes flying around, wouldn't you need clearance from the FAA or other regulatory authorities before doing this?

here's a good start for answers http://www.stratostar.net/faq/#faq1

It seems if you keep the payload under 6 pounds, and abide by a few other limitations, free balloons are a-okay as far as the FAA is concerned.

http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/part101.html

If you're near an airport, it's still probably a good idea to notify the FAA that you'll be doing a launch.

Indeed. It certainly cannot hurt to ask them.

Read a little closer...

(a) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless-

     (1) It is equipped with at least two payload cut-down systems or
     devices that operate independently of each other;
     
     (2) At least two methods, systems, devices, or combinations
     thereof, that function independently of each other, are employed
     for terminating the flight of the balloon envelope; and
     
     (3) The balloon envelope is equipped with a radar reflective
     device(s) or material that will present an echo to surface radar
     operating in the 200 MHz to 2700 MHz frequency range.

<snip>

      (a) Prelaunch notice : Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this
     section, no person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless,
     within 6 to 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the
     following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to
     the place of intended operation:
     (a) Each person operating an unmanned free balloon shall:

     (1) Unless ATC requires otherwise, monitor the course of the
     balloon and record its position at least every two hours; and
     
     (2) Forward any balloon position reports requested by ATC.

That only applies if the criteria in 101.1.a.4 are met:

  (4) Except as provided for in 101.7, any unmanned free balloon
 that-
     
     (i) Carries a payload package that weighs more than four pounds and
     has a weight/size ratio of more than three ounces per square inch
     on any surface of the package, determined by dividing the total
     weight in ounces of the payload package by the area in square
     inches of its smallest surface;
     
     (ii) Carries a payload package that weighs more than six pounds;
     
     (iii) Carries a payload, of two or more packages, that weighs more
     than 12 pounds; or
     
     (iv) Uses a rope or other device for suspension of the payload that
     requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to separate the
     suspended payload from the balloon.

As long as those don't apply to you, you're pretty much good to go. I'd imagine that they're criteria where, should your ballon hit anything, it wouldn't cause any damage.

The amateur radio club at my alma mater launched a high altitude balloon last year, and used an APRS transmitter to send back coordinates:

http://www.collegearc.com/arhab/index.php

Their flickr page has a bunch of pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/62621941@N02/sets/7215762667487...

Wish I could help. I'll be looking for updates to this story with fingers crossed on capturing that meteor shower!

Wow... How would you feel if someone would send a balloon your way next time you board a plane?

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