Hacker News Reader

Comment by Karunamon | Hacker News Reader

FTFA>Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore.

If having an app store is the criterion for not being an open platform, not even Ubuntu qualifies. And last I checked, I can still compile and run whatever I damn well please on Win8.

There wasn't even this level of derp when Apple launched the app store for OS X.

Straight up FUD. Windows will always be the premier gaming platform as long as it has the majority of the desktop base, and by extension the best driver support, and by extension the most games written for it.

Valve is going to kill themselves to attempt to make a point, at this rate.

View on HN

> If having an app store is the criterion for not being an open platform, not even Ubuntu qualifies.

It doesn't say "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore," so you misinterpreted that.

The difference between the Windows 8 app store and Ubuntu's Software Center is that you can easily add 3rd party repositories to the latter. Also keep in mind that on Windows RT (the ARM version of Windows 8), you can't install any apps from outside the app store, period.

> Windows will always be the premier gaming platform as long as it has the majority of the desktop base, and by extension the best driver support, and by extension the most games written for it.

Linux doesn't have to have the best driver support to be sufficient as a gaming platform. If it has enough driver support for games to run well, it has a chance. And the proprietary NVIDIA Linux drivers right now work quite well in my experience. There are a few bugs, but nothing that can't be ironed out with a little time.

Just because Windows has the "majority of the desktop base" doesn't mean it has to be the premiere gaming platform. Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.

If I were Valve, I would start programs such as "if you spend X hours playing Steam games on Linux, you get a discount on your next game." That would have a huge impact on what gamers are using to play games, and could push other developers to port their games to Linux. As the middleman between millions of gamers and hundreds of game studios, Valve has enormous power here.

The fact of the matter is, of the 250+ games I have in my steam library <50 of them work with mac. This ties me to windows.

When I run windows 8, I can run steam and all my games, they dont magically stop working. While windows 8 RT isnt an open platform, the windows i will be running on my laptops and my desktops will be.

I'm very disappointed in valves wording, and it shows how poorly their responding to their first real competition.

> The fact of the matter is, of the 250+ games I have in my steam library <50 of them work with mac. This ties me to windows.

And what has Valve done to promote gaming on OS X exactly? Sure, they had a short Portal promotion and have added games since, but they haven't exactly pushed the platform.

And besides, Macs are not good gaming machines. Desktop Macs (iMacs and Mac Pros) are much more difficult to upgrade than Linux/Windows desktops, and you get less powerful hardware for your money.

You can't install OS X on a non-Apple desktop (not without a lot of hassle, anyway), and very few people have done that. OTOH, you can easily install Linux on a Windows desktop, which is what most gamers have at the moment. A lot of the people on HN have spent a lot of time in the Bay Area and have forgotten that 90% of the population doesn't own a Mac, so let me remind you of that fact. Unlike with OS X, gamers can move to Linux without purchasing any new hardware.

Therefore, using the lack of success of OS X as a gaming platform since Steam added support for it to say that Linux won't succeed either is faulty logic.

> When I run windows 8, I can run steam and all my games, they dont magically stop working.

Well, there are many of us who already run Linux and only keep around a Windows install to play games. The vast majority of my time is spent playing Source-based games. If I were given the option of playing Source-based games in Linux, I would spend very little time in Windows.

> I'm very disappointed in valves wording, and it shows how poorly their responding to their first real competition.

I think they're responding the best they can. They're going up against Microsoft, which is well known for its anticompetitive behavior. The Windows 8 app store will be installed by default and given prime real estate (baked into the UI) in Windows 8. Valve needs to do something quickly before Microsoft starts abusing this power, and the best way to do that is to get gamers onto a platform no one controls - Linux.

> Desktop Macs (iMacs and Mac Pros) are much more difficult to upgrade than Linux/Windows desktops

'Much more difficult' is an exaggeration for Mac Pros. The biggest issue for gaming is the GPU. With Mountain Lion, you have seamless support for 600-series NVIDIA cards using NVIDIA's own drivers (I use a GTX 670 at home in my recently built Hackintosh). The bigger issue from a game developer's point of view is that the OpenGL implementation on OS X is still a mess, though it's been slowly getting better, partly from pushback from developers like Valve.

I know the guys doing the Linux work at Valve personally. They've been doing a ton of work with vendors in the process of getting their games to run well on different GPUs. Right now NVIDIA and Intel have the best Linux support. Hopefully AMD/ATI will catch up if Valve's Steam push creates enough momentum.

Almost all the issues with gaming on OS X and Linux are chicken-and-egg problems that will resolve themselves if there is ever enough anti-Windows momentum to warrant the sufficient vendor work.

Macs are not good gaming machines? Most Macs have decent hardware, and the driver problem in Linux prevents a large portions of hardware to perform efficiently anyway, so performance is definitely not a problem for Macs, my friend play Skyrim and Diablo 3 without any problem on their macs.

> Therefore, using the lack of success of OS X as a gaming platform since Steam added support for it to say that Linux won't succeed either is faulty logic. True. Same thing applies with saying that gaming on Linux will take off just because Steam added support for it.

I think the problem with desktop Linux that was discussed around a while back is still the biggest thing that is holding Linux as a gaming platform (or as a desktop OS, even). A number of humble bundle that I purchased runs really slowly on Linux because of lack of support for my graphic card.

TLDR: Still a chicken/egg situation with Linux adoption as a mainstream OS in general.

> Most Macs have decent hardware

It doesn't matter if they have decent hardware, that hardware is expensive and not upgradeable. That's a big factor for gamers who want to get the most bang for their buck. 2 years down the line, those Macs will struggle to run the latest games at the highest settings, and rather than being able to just swap out some components as necessary, people will have to ditch the whole computer and buy a new one from Apple. Good for Apple's profits, bad for the gamers.

> the driver problem in Linux prevents a large portions of hardware to perform efficiently anyway

I don't know what this mythical "driver problem" is, but I haven't personally encountered it.

> A number of humble bundle that I purchased runs really slowly on Linux because of lack of support for my graphic card.

I don't know what graphics card you have, but I have purchased just about every Humble Bundle so far, and they run just fine on my Linux machine.

I agree with your Mac point.

But Linux still has driver issues. I'm not sure even my keyboard (Corsair K90) would work with Linux - a quick scan on the forums (http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=109501) suggests it needs various manual tweaking and most of its functionality would be missing.

I have various other bits of USB paraphernalia of Taiwanese / Chinese / etc. origin like scanners, printers, microscopes, etc., all of which only come with Windows drivers and maybe, if you're lucky, Mac. The problem with Linux is that you generally have to know the chipset etc. in order to know which driver is applicable, and it turns into a detective hunt. You must have seen this before; quite frequently, a single SKU may have multiple different chipsets behind the scenes, but the manufacturer's Windows drivers just cope - meanwhile, to get Linux to work, you need to know the details.

I have never installed Linux and had it work for all my hardware, except for distributions tailored specifically for the machine (Eeebuntu on my Asus Eee 701) - and even then they missed out on things like the keyboard shortcut to toggle the wifi radio so you could use it on a plane.

The pool of hardware out there is deep and gnarly.

When did you last use Linux? These days, the correct kernel module for supported hardware is loaded automatically as soon as you plug it in.

So when will Steam let me add third party repositories for software?

This is all FUD being spun up by Valve because they don't like competition for their app store.

> So when will Steam let me add third party repositories for software?

This was never a comparison between Steam and the Windows 8 app store. The two are not equivalent, because one is baked into the OS, while the other is 3rd party software.

What is comparable is the Windows 8 app store and the Ubuntu Software Center. And it's very clear that the latter is much more open.

Oh. Awesome.

So when will Valve let me install their software with Ubuntu Software Center?

Once it's been released? There are various closed source software projects that currently allow you to install software through the Software Center, such as VirtualBox and Chrome. You just add click on a link on their site to add the PPA to Ubuntu's package management system.

>> And the proprietary NVIDIA Linux drivers right now work quite well in my experience. There are a few bugs, but nothing that can't be ironed out with a little time.

The proprietary NVIDIA drivers for Linux are built directly from the same source base as the Windows drivers, the only difference being the interface layer between the kernel and the driver. Feature set and performance are identical to the Windows drivers.

I'm not aware of any known critical bugs in the kernel parts. Usually when stuff breaks in the NVidia drivers, it's because of a combination of a kernel update and sloppy package management by the distribution. None of this should be an issue if Valve decides to release some kind of Linux based 'Steam loader' that boots directly to the game itself, or make their own Linux distro with tight control over the kernel and GPU drivers.

I'm not sure how good the ATI linux drivers are these days though.

> "None of this should be an issue if Valve decides to release some kind of Linux based 'Steam loader' that boots directly to the game itself"

That's a pretty interesting angle. But it might be a bridge too far. Gamers would almost certainly follow Valve to Linux. But asking them to give up their mp3 players, chat programs and background tasks while they're gaming?

Only if it were a living room solution, which has its own "day 1" sorts of challenges. (e.g. the number of titles with not only gamepad support, but where you truly do not need the keyboard/mouse to play.)

>But asking them to give up their mp3 players, chat programs and background tasks while they're gaming?

Wat.

Linux programs like Pidgin have support for almost all IM protocols known to man, it can handle any Portable Media Player with sane behavior (read: identifies as removable storage, which pretty much all players except the shitty Apple ones do) and last time I checked, Linux is capable of multitasking, too.

>identifies as removable storage

Managing your music collection as a distinct set of files and folders is a rather 90's concept. What matters is how the files are presented to the end user - they can be all slapped into a single folder and given GUID names as long as the resultant database presents them in a clear and meaningful way.

(Only partly kidding - I think your criterion for a "shitty" music player will find a great deal of dissent :3)

>Linux programs like Pidgin have support for almost all IM protocols known to man

Weak support. Anything beyond simple chatting almost universally doesn't work. File transfers, picture syncing, god forbid voice and video chat.

The thing about identifying as removable storage is that it allows you to use whatever music syncing tool or library program you want, and aren't locked into the universally horrible vendor-supplied excuses for an application. Files in a directory structure are a universal API that almost any program can understand and make use of.

As for the IM protocols, maybe this will prompt people to migrate to better protocols like XMPP. ICQ, MSN, AIM and all those other proprietary protocols with their ad-laden, bloated clients (which I classify as nothing short of malware) should have died years ago.

I was specifically referring to the suggestion Valve could have an option to boot a machine directly to a given game. Which would imply no other third party software would be running.

So the current (in)existence of other Linux software would be irrelevant.

> Usually when stuff breaks in the NVidia drivers, it's because of a combination of a kernel update and sloppy package management by the distribution. None of this should be an issue if Valve decides to release some kind of Linux based 'Steam loader' that boots directly to the game itself, or make their own Linux distro with tight control over the kernel and GPU drivers.

I'd say the best option here is to work with Canonical to make Ubuntu a stable gaming platform. Valve has the gaming expertise and Canonical has the Linux expertise and community mindshare, so I could definitely see them working it out.

>The difference between the Windows 8 app store and Ubuntu's Software Center is that you can easily add 3rd party repositories to the latter.

Or just install the other store's software onto Win8 or OSX. Still FUD.

>Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.

This is true, especially among the subset of gamers who build their own computers. They are particularly ripe for experimentation with Linux, and would represent the Innovator/Early Adopter stage in the TAL [1]. Get those guys on board and the rest may see it as new and cool and follow.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle*

Sadly, for those people building their own computers, driver problems are going to be even worse... I have never been able to get my ATI/AMD graphic cards to work properly under Linux...

Which is okay. I am huge fan of Valve games and know that Nvidia drivers can run games quite well on Linux, so if AMD/ATI do not want my money, it is fine my me.
I know that one might say but majority of users do not know this, but from what I can tell from participating in gaming communities, these guy do proper research before buying a new rig. I can totally see lot of people who solely play Valve games (TF2, L4D, Dota2, CS:Go, CS) will try Linux if their games work on Linux.

There are issues with the ATI Linux drivers, but there are a lot of gamers with NVIDIA cards, and those work quite well on Linux. We don't need to get everyone to move to Linux, just a good number, and just those on NVIDIA will be more than sufficient.

If you are building your own computers anyways, it's not that huge of an issue to watch out for Linux compatible graphic cards. Really.

>It doesn't say "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore," so you misinterpreted that.
Then the article was not written clearly. I don't see Valve taking Apple to task for the MAS. There's no other valid way to interpret that sentence.
>Linux doesn't have to have the best driver support to be sufficient as a gaming platform. If it has enough driver support for games to run well, it has a chance.
I'd argue that it already does. There are plenty of games that run on Linux (hardly as many on windows, but you can easily say the drivers are "there").
>Just because Windows has the "majority of the desktop base" doesn't mean it has to be the premiere gaming platform. Gamers are a very select group of people, and there's no reason Valve couldn't target them.
Disagree. Look at the Mac - decent support, decent performance, it has AAA titles on it that are also on other platforms, yet you won't ever see AAA exclusive titles being released on the mac. And why would you? Think like a publisher - you're artificially limiting your audience. The number of people who will jump platforms (or even maintain two platforms) just for your title is infinitesimal. Until such time as that happens, the mac is an also-ran. Same for Linux - and Linux has a huge advantage over Mac in that there's zero cost barrier.

> Then the article was not written clearly...There's no other valid way to interpret that sentence.
If you don't understand the difference between "Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore" and "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore," then you need to work on your English comprehension skills. The difference is subtle, but apparent. There's nothing wrong with the article.
> I don't see Valve taking Apple to task for the MAS.
Because Macs and Mac users were never a big audience for Valve to begin with. The vast majority of Valve's users run Windows, so it only makes sense for them to be worried about the drastic changes with respect to app distribution in Windows 8.
> Look at the Mac - decent support, decent performance, it has AAA titles on it that are also on other platforms, yet you won't ever see AAA exclusive titles being released on the mac.
Who said anything about getting exclusive titles? Moreover, there was no reason before to move away from Windows or towards Mac. Windows 7 was an open platform and the Mac is relatively closed and not friendly to gamers in terms of hardware.
The situation has changed with Windows 8 because there is a clear reason for people not to use it - the weird new touch-centric interface that's used for desktops as well, which makes even less sense on the multi-20+ inch monitor setups that many gamers have.
Valve can easily create pull factors for Linux that it couldn't with OS X. It can work closely with Canonical to improve game performance beyond that on Windows (this is already the case according to their framerate tests) and perhaps bundle Steam with Ubuntu. It can support a wide range of easily upgradeable gamer-friendly hardware setups. The factor that you can just use your existing Windows PC to run Linux (something not possible with OS X) is a big factor as well.

>If you don't understand the difference between "Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore" and "Because Windows 8 ships with its own app store, it is not an open platform anymore..
Then why mention them together? Again, I don't see Valve giving apple a hard time over their decision to make the app store the primary distribution method for Mac software.
>The vast majority of Valve's users run Windows, so it only makes sense for them to be worried about the drastic changes with respect to app distribution in Windows 8.
You mean the addition of a store that doesn't really change anything? Steam runs on 8 exactly as it did on 7. Again, Apple had tighter integration and more coercion - which is why I said this sounds like FUD. Their concerns are inconsistent.
>Who said anything about getting exclusive titles?
I did, because what I'm trying to imply here is that Mac/Linux is not a serious gaming platform until such time as publishers would even think about considering making exclusives for it. Until that time, there just isn't enough penetration for it to matter.

I'd argue that it already does. There are plenty of games that run on Linux (hardly as many on windows, but you can easily say the drivers are "there").
No it doesnt. The problem is actually NOT that games have to run on average drivers, but rather that drivers dont work on the OS.
For example, I'm constantly hindered by ATI and Nvidia drivers affecting suspend/resume, HDMI out and power consumption. And quite often, I get drivers that screw with X.
You give me a 30% hit in game performance, but dont let it affect core OS issues, I'll be more than happy. However, I dont think thats the status quo.
This is actually why I think (flames welcome) that Valve should focus more on the Linux core first and then on the Steam app as such. I was half expecting them to come up with this distro using Wayland, seamless Linux audio (!!) and a new driver infrastructure.

This is quite a ropey writeup of the talk by the looks of it. I imagine what was actually said was probably different and might even have made sense.

My question is, did Valve say that or is that just some really bad editorializing from the person who wrote the article?
I bet it's the latter.

Larry Ellison said a lot of interesting things about the cloud.
Steve Jobs said a few things about the tablet foam factor.
Even if the gentleman from Valve did say that, they're not just going to throw away their business. They're probably playing for the 25% or so Linux gaming market that the Humble Bundles have shown exists.

I suppose it doesn't affect you if you compile everything yourself. But you can't run a Metro app that anyone else has compiled. Store or bust. That is a bad path. I certainly wouldn't say windows 8 is 'open'.

>But you can't run a Metro app that anyone else has compiled.
It's metro - who cares? You get more functionality with the desktop.
On a less snarky note, yes you can. All that's necessary is your system has to trust the CA that signed the app - which is itself a few mouse clicks away.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/04/25/depl...
I've personally done this to load a leaked Skype beta for Metro. Put the requisite commands in a powershell batch file and it becomes so easy your gran can do it.

1. It matters because metro is a core part of the new OS and what microsoft is focused on.
2. I didn't realize you could set up sideloading on non-enterprise versions. As long as that is intentional and not a side-effect of implementation, I take back my complaints about windows 8.

Re: 2, you can't. It's the enterprise editions only, I'm afraid. The preview was the one I did my experiment on.
That said, there's nothing saying you can't use the enterprise version at home...

Big boy betting against Valve in a bout of cheap indignation.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com