Why you should take your 20's seriously | Hacker News Reader

Why you should take your 20's seriously

jasonevanish.com

235 pointsjevanish166 comments

I "agree", but draw the exact opposite conclusions.

You should take your 20's seriously... because it's the only time in your life that you aren't encumbered by building a career, having kids, etc.

So you should take your 20's to do the things that you won't be able to do later. Work as a bartender, play in a band, travel the world on the cheap, teach English abroad, date the kind of people you wouldn't marry. You don't have serious responsibilities, so take advantage of that while you can.

Don't waste your 20's "building a career". You've got your 30's and 40's and 50's to do that. Don't be in a rush to have kids too soon.

Obviously, don't throw your 20's away. But spend them doing life-experience-focused things, not career- or family-focused.

And this gets at the author's third point: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it), then you'd better get in all those varied life experiences sooner rather than later. Learn a second language, learn to cook, learn to play music.

Don't waste your 20's on grinding away at traditionally career-oriented stuff. That part of your brain is probably already fine. Your 20's is the time to look for diversity in your life, not to focus narrowly on any particular part. You've got all the decades afterward to work on narrow refinement and career progression...

> "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it)

It is true.

Good argument, pal.

Its not an argument, its true physiologically, or so its been reported. Certain types of reasoning peak (in terms of horse-power or raw CPU type performance) in your 20's, similar to raw athleticism. But there are a whole host of factors, around plasticity, memory management, and actual memory (ie, empirical data) that allow more real-world performance at a later age/stage. To continue the computer analogy, the fastest chip doesnt always win, if you have GPU, L1/L2 cach, improved bus-speed, SSD storage, and better written software....etc. Similary, in certain sports world-class athletes improve well beyond their peak physiology. Himilayan mountain climbing is the classic example of peak perfomance <not> being in your 20's.

Citing Wikipedia != contributing to discussion.

I agree. Just:

> Learn a second language, learn to cook, learn to play music.

Yes, late is better then never. But please do not wait until your twenties for those.

I'm a 29-year old male who spent his 20s building a career I love and now has a 6-month old daughter, so this quote:

> Don't waste your 20's "building a career". You've got your 30's and 40's and 50's to do that. Don't be in a rush to have kids too soon.

Doesn't really make sense to me. If you don't build a career and finances in your 20s, you either can't afford to have a kid in your early 30s or you have one and can't provide the life and opportunities they should have. And it seems you skipped over the part about women having extreme difficulties having children later than their mid-30s, or the children they have are at a higher risk of birth defects and miscarriages. Typically, a guy by himself cannot create a child without a woman, so if you're going to party in your 20s and not think about finances and a career until your 30s, and kids later than that, you should know going in that your partner will be need to be much younger than you to accomplish this.

I don't mean to ask personal questions here, but it seems apropos considering your guidance: how old are you? do you have a spouse? a son or daughter? Does your guidance match up with how you've lived your life, and are you now successfully balancing a budding career and family in your older years after living your 20s in various countries like China, France, Brazil and others?

Pretty much. People need to start thinking about their career the moment they get their first job. This means planning out what kinds of skills they need to pick up to advance, opening a retirement account and putting as much money they can into it (compound interest), and never take anything for granted. Those who don't do these things in their 20s are basically going to be 10 years behind everyone who did.

Compound interest at < 1% isn't going to make much difference over a decade. At > 1% risks losing principal, and inflation is probably > 1% now anyway, so that you lose money on savings. Money spent (rather than invested) in one's 20s offers greater opportunity for enjoyment than when in your 60s, when your choices are more limited, if you even reach your 60s. A balanced approach is best.

Money spent (rather than invested) in one's 20s offers greater opportunity for enjoyment than when in your 60s, when your choices are more limited

Would you care to elaborate on this? I don't (yet) have first-hand experience with being in my 60's, but I did watch my parents spend money to their great enjoyment after they retired in their 60's.

Exactly, my parents are in their 60's and both retired and are having a bloody great time. Golf, fast cars, lots of holidays, they're loving it.

Good for them. There's still more opportunity for enjoyment for younger folk, though. Even if a 60-something manages to do the same activity, like snowboarding, it's going to be done in a less youthful body. It's a big waste for 20-somethings to overly focus on their career in that decade, unless work is what they most enjoy.

>>Compound interest at < 1% isn't going to make much difference over a decade.

Huh? I'm not talking about a savings account here brother. I'm talking about retirement investment accounts like 401k and IRAs. In their 20s, the majority of those investments should be in stocks, which on average gain 9-10% per year. The compound interest on that is humongous.

Stocks don't average 9-10% per year, not anymore. Since the Dow was at 10K in 1999, the Dow has averaged 2.1% per year, with great volatility (ups/downs). Including dividends, maybe 4%. The gov't has fueled that relatively anemic growth with massive unsustainable borrowing and raping of the environment, so the past is definitely not an indicator of future performance.

are at a higher risk of birth defects

From everything I have read, the risk doubles. That may sound like a big deal, but quoting from memory, it doubles from a 0.5% chance to a 1% chance, which is still exceedingly low odds. I'm not sure that risk alone is enough to warrant holding back on having children later in life.

I know two couples who waited till their mid-30s to have children and after various miscarriages they both delivered boys with Down Syndrome, so was that worth partying in their 20s? No.

Not everyone who has kids in their mid-30s gets a kid with Down syndrome, and not everyone who has kids in their mid-30s does so because they were partying.

In whose opinion? It may shock you to learn that parents of children with down-syndrome frequently do not view it as the life-ruining event you make it out to be.

I assume you mean from 35 to 40? The odds jump from 0.5% to 1% for Down Syndrome specifically; risk of any birth defect would be higher.

That said, the bigger issue is infertility, which increases by 20%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_female_fertility

Thanks for pointing that out. That may be what I remembered. What are the statistics for general defects between the two groups?

In my late twenties I spent three full years smoking weed everyday. I didn't build a career in my 20s, I just fucked around because I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I smoked weed and partied. I had a long-term relationship in my 20s, but we broke up and at 30 I was single again. I was thoroughly lost. I slept on a friends couch for 5 months in a row. All in all, not a very bright future, right? Wrong!

I'm 35 now, I quit my job & moved abroad, became an independent web developer, met a wonderful woman who's 5 months pregnant with our firstborn, I've been asked (!) to lead the development team of a highly rated startup and have been making more money than any of my peers for the last few years... So you know: things can change. It's not a strict requirement to spend your 20s all serious - even if you don't, you can still be successful.

One of Britain's wealthiest men had a similar experience in his 20s. He didn't get started or even have a bank account until he was 30: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Bannatyne

relevent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2h_GIP019c

Awesome! I've just posted this to HN in case it's interesting to anyone else.

I more or less just came into my 30s and I spent my 20s pretty much exclusively on computers, studying and working and playing. Computer were pretty much 95% of my life. Last time I changed job, I more than doubled my after-tax salary and I have not once had to go through the process of really applying; whenever I showed up to HR things were pretty much decided already in advance, they just had to keep up appearances. I have always been the guy everyone goes to for help, I have more than once fundamentally changed the way people work, think and approach problems for the better. Where I have worked for the last 5 to 7 years, I am pretty much the last line "of defense", so to speak... because every time something stopped working and I could not figure it out, it would go on taking the support team of one of the biggest names in IT literally a year trying to pinpoint the issue only to not being able to come up with a solution in the end. This is not meant to boast, I am working towards a point:

So I would say my "career" is there... yet my personal life and emotional happiness is in complete ruins; while my age and point in career match at "30", emotionally and as a person, a human being, I feel like I am 12. I feel like I have completely wasted my 20s, I have never had a chance to actually grow up, I just worked on "career" which is what everyone told me to; the rest of the time I sedated myself with video games and food and otherwise spending the money I had made to numb down any and all bad feelings. I don't think I could ever get these 10 years back and grow into a strong minded, healthy human being now that the time is gone. Everyone at my age now is lightyears ahead of me both emotionally and in terms of experience and other skills.

That is why from my own experience, I cannot imagine having the opposite "20s" to be ANY worse because at least if you "wasted" your 20s, at least then you had fun and had good moments to think back on and you matured as a human being but you got something out of those 10 years and your 30s are early enough to be working on "career" with all the skills and the strength you gathered by the experiences you made in your 20s.

For me, now, I feel completely stuck and wasted, at a complete emotional and existential low point of no return. I have to try and use what little energy I have left to battle against all sorts of addictive behaviour and means of escape that I developed in those lonely, hard working 10 years. Whatever money I am making does not matter because I don't really get anything valuable and truly good from it. And even if I desperately tried to change now, I would have to invest all that energy while everyone else is free to use the same energy to lead a happy and fulfilled, enjoyable life. I just cannot win anymore.

If I could do it over again, I would do nothing but drink, party, meet people, be BOLD and strong, teach myself more about computers and do all that in a foreign country and develop a personality before anything else. Go play in your 20s, everyone else is pushing you towards "career" anyway so at least you yourself need to take very good care of yourself as a human being and develop that side and make sure you get enough "play".

Speaking from the other side here, I started programming at eight and abandoned that in my late teens for partying, sex and adventure through my twenties. Despite landing a scholarship at a respectable school, I walked out the door two months later to go chase a girl.

It's only been now in my thirties that I've taken programming and such seriously, because it's suddenly far more fun to me than social games. There's this vague sense of regret much like you're describing, except inverted -- I could have probably accomplished a LOT had I stayed on point. Despite that, I'm still successful by standards I set out for myself in my early twenties and I've got some rather ambitious plans for my forties, yet.

At the end of the day: I've been here since Usenet was a thing, dotcoms are still as hilarious as they were in the 90s and I honestly think it's just the media fixation on the notion of precocious children that perpetuates this culture obsessed with how we're all supposedly dead at thirty -- when really, that's when many creative individuals begin to hit their stride as many artists discover their talents later in life.

Really, people should stop worrying about any of this shit, as most of it is just talk from people trying to sandbag you.

+1 for being brave enough to talk so candidly.

>There's this vague sense of regret much like you're describing, except inverted...

Let me tell you a little joke, it is a running joke in our family. A young man goes to his father for advice: "Should I get married to my girlfriend Jenny or stay single?" Father replies "Son...My dear, dear son... whatever you do, you'll end up regretting it."

But when we are not joking, the advice we give each other is usually "well... whatever you do, things should turn out okay". And that is in fact how it has been.

So, IMHO:

>Really, people should stop worrying about any of this shit

is exactly right.

Your post somewhat strikes a chord with me in a way.

Where I come from, most guys at around 20(after junior college) would have to serve the army for 2.5 years. I felt that, that part of my life was seriously wasted since many of my friends who didn't have to serve were doing so many different and interesting things with their life. I felt kinda robbed. Robbed of the prime time of my life. After serving time there, I decided to find a job and started working.

I spent most of my waking hours on computers(programming) and not much on developing personal relationships. At that time, I thought that was the right thing to do, going by social norms.

Had a career so to speak and a girlfriend and I was ready to settle down. But things fell apart and in hindsight, I'm glad that it happened. Like you, I feel that I have not grown emotionally and I'm saying this as someone who just reached 30.

I am in love with the idea of just leaving everything now and try to fix whatever damage I have mentally. Take some time off to travel by myself. I have the time and the resources but I just couldn't bring myself to do it(mental block, fear and uncertainty of travelling alone).

If I could do it all over again, I would have moved somewhere else(if it means being apart from family) and try to find out what I really wanted to do in life and basically just having fun while at it and not worry about having a 'proper career'.

Sorry about going off on a tangent, I didn't think it would be this many lines when I first started typing this.

As a fellow Singaporean I feel the same way about NS, and also regret not investing in personal relationships as much as I should have. I'm trying to fix that now, but it doesn't come naturally to me.

I actually kept away from programming and tech for many years because I felt it wasn't "practical" - instead I went towards business and finance because that was where the well-paying jobs were. I regret that choice now, because I always really enjoyed the times I dabbled in coding.

You can still leave everything to discover yourself, even at 30. But I think if you really like tech, you'll come back to it soon enough - whether in a town in Vietnam, or a hostel in Europe. Good luck.

The upside of having a good career is you can use the extra money to pay for therapy. I've done it off and on for the last 15 years and have really gotten a lot out of it.

"Don't waste your 20's "building a career". You've got your 30's and 40's and 50's to do that."

It's hard to try to pivot in your 30s if you don't have a resume with at least some points to match your future career.

If you haven't used anything from your post-secondary degree 8 years after getting it... employers are going to notice that and assume that your degree is worthless.

I say this having seen far too many friends get stuck in the waitress/bartending life only to find out that you plateau in your 30s unless you go into the high end fine dining, sommelier, running your own place, etc.

Same thing has happened to friends in retail after they reached manager or assistant manager at a store that was supposed to be their part time job.

Yes, this is absolutely true in my case (similar though slightly reversed from what you describe).

I did the military thing and later college, but switched directions a couple years in college to pick up programming. Even if I reach master skill levels, I'm afraid that my career is stunted because of a short military stint and several years in warehouse/factory jobs before heading off to college.

People see that I'm in my mid-30s with less than 3 years experience in my field and automatically shuffle me out of the candidate pool (so it seems to me anyway).

You might be looking in the wrong town. Consider moving to a town with a greater demand/supply factor. 3 years experience, if you can show your work (e.g. a website) should be plenty in many places.

Yeah, moving out of state right now is not really an option. We are 2 years into our mortgage and have one of those "you gotta live there 5 years or pay penalties" situations, have a new son (six months old now, so complications with that) and parents getting ready to move 2,200 miles here to help watch and experience their first grandchild.

Granted, all "excuses" but while I have meager pay and bad benefits, my wife makes enough that we don't have any financial problems (just ego ones on my part, lol - she makes 2x my income).

Anyway, we live in the Seattle Metro area, and I'm willing to commute some distance so my opportunities aren't severely limited (I think).

Seattle is one of the "right" towns I was thinking of.

> And this gets at the author's third point:

This third point is, by the way, completely wrong. Not only does he blow a minor thing completely out of proportion by applying it to the whole brain and intelligence, there hardly is any real evidence to back up that you cannot learn new things later in life - on the contrary, check out "Guitar Zero", Gary Marcus does a great job of debunking the "not worth it to try anymore" myth.

Contra: you only live once. The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there.

When you're young, you're at the point at which you most likely have fewer worries of any kind than you will in the rest of your life. And you won't appreciate this until it's gone. A slightly more advanced career is a poor substitute.

I'm not arguing in favour of feckless youth. In fact, you should be serious about one thing - not wasting your time. But building a career that you abandon in your 30s or 40s may also be a waste of time.

This. As they say "We had a plan for everything and then life happened"

The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there.

Well said. Now that I'm 30, I'm pretty much living the dream I had for myself when I was 20, but it hasn't turned out to be exactly what I thought it would be.

I'm not sure there is any way you can win though. If I had lived my life differently in my 20s and not had fulfilled the goals I set for myself, I'd be still dreaming the same dreams wishing I could achieve them. The grass is always greener and all that.

Agreed. One thing I've noticed about my own life is how hard even 1 year out of your career track hurts you both professionally (skill set) and personally (income/wealth). I was doing financial services programming for a big bank as my first job right out of college before the housing bust. I ended up getting laid off and enjoying the "funemployment" people talk about: 6 month full severance, unemployment at the top rate after that, living at home with the parents, no debt, and doing whatever strikes my fancy.

I set an upper bound of 1 year maximum to be out of the field of programming. When I came back (should have kept programming while unemployed, stupid, I know) not only had my skill set deteriorated but so did my market rate. Out of college my salary was $98,000. By the time I had gotten back into the work force my salary was $65,000. It took about 1.5 years of hard work and a lot of overtime to get back to where I was. And during this time my peers that stayed employed have grown a lot both in terms skill set and market rate. So basically because I took 1 year off, I lost ~2.5-3 years of my career because I had to work back to where I was before.

I think if I were to get a do-over I would have not have taken a year off. But the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, as they say.

Did you go back to the same field and responsibilities? I'm taking almost 2.5 years off but I don't really think I'll suffer a set-back.

So much of it has to do with where the economy is.

Looking for a job in 2000 vs 2001 was a change in what you could demand as a salary. Same in 2008 vs 2009.

Well that makes sense. Also would make sense that this is possibly why he got laid off in the first place.

Yes still the same field. If I switch jobs I think I can probably expect a 30-40k bump + signing bonus since it's a totally different market now. Also when you have a job people want you. When you're out of a job you're seen as deficient in some way.

The more I think about it, the less I understand this common concept of sweating and working NOW for the good you might one day reap... having been born in the West, you are in the extremely fortunate position of being able to perfectly work on skills and slowly building a career while at the same time enjoying life to the fullest. It is a very strange thing we always put the good times off for later and slave away now only to make more money to one day finally eventually reap all the benefits when we are 50, 60 or 70 - a time in life when your options are way more limited than they were in your 20s and 30s.

I agree with you, we live too much in the "one glorious day" fantasy world and we agree too much to become chased rats battling for minor increments of personal wealth when the truly wealthy people of the world are absolutely untouchable and forever out of our reach.

Good luck trying to tell other people how they should live their lives.

I can tell you that there are probably a hundred things I could've done better with my time in my twenties. However there was no way that I would have known then what I would be like today and what makes me happy now. Back then I thought I would keep gigging in bands and I'd scrape together a record label and have a long career in music. That's what made me happy at the time and what I sought out to do. How could I have known that I would change? I have a wife now and a daughter on the way, I've become a mild-mannered programmer who enjoys mathematics and literature, and rather than getting pissed on a Friday night and making a lot of noise I like to hang out with my friends and play board games. But if I was wiser I might have went to university and worked on getting a PhD then I'd probably be better off now, today. Hindsight...

What I'm saying is that humans are terrible planners. We're good at adapting and adjusting but we can never seem to be able to accurately predict outcomes. I think that we glorify those people who seem to far surpass the status quo and bend their stories into myth. It's romantic to think that Einstein or Steve Jobs had set out to change the world when they were young but if we're honest about their history it's more likely that they drifted towards those things and all the right pieces were in place at the right time to make great things happen.

And it doesn't end when you hit thirty. I'm still as ambitious as ever and I see new currents that I'd like to follow that I would never have thought possible before. You don't just become a dumb, boring, cantankerous old person over night. Quite the contrary; I find that my tastes are far more refined, I can see dead-ends before going down the path, and I am more adverse to wasting my time. You start to see patterns in the ocean and can navigate the seas with ease.

So plan all you want but be prepared to fight the current and the winds!

Beautifully written, thanks for the insights.

I disagree with a lot of the comments - and with the article point.

We should not think about taking any age seriously or not, but of the bigger picture instead, ie one's goals in life.

Unfortunately, they are not written down for you, and they can be quite hard to find.

There are various algorithm that may work, but all I see in the article and the comments are basically 2 opposite proposals :

- plan A: explore in your twenties to make sure you properly identify your goals

- plan B : commit to your career in your twenties to take advantage of compounding interest (in life as in money)

But we all know alternatives approaches - like iterating between exploration (finding a local maxima) and exploitation (taking advantage of this local maxima)

I guess it all depends if you have already found your fancy, and all longs it will take to get you bored out of it, but it seems to be a much better approach - especially if you do not ignore the money aspect of your fancies (ie starting a band might be fun, but odds of financial return are low)

Also, it seems to me a lot of the comments insist about family and children. These are individual decisions - not givens, something the author clearly stated ("if having a family is part of your life's goals").

Fortunately for men, there is no age limit (and if we keep our rate of technological progress in stem cells and differentiation into germinal lines, there is no reason why it couldn't be also possible for women)

Currently, at least for 50% of the readers, age should not be factored in - opening the door for more iteration of the explore/exploit loop, with the always present opportunity to have kids.

I guess I don't understand or I'm missing something, maybe like the preference of dating someone of a similar age (which might then impose its own preference on optimal child bearing age)

Fortunately for men, there is no age limit

Maybe. Some newer evidence shows older fathers are more likely to pass on genetic mutations.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044481270457760...

This is rather straw-man-ish. He equates having a fun, care-free life as ... working at Starbucks.

I don't know anyone who's ever said, "Well, why don't you just work at Starbucks for a decade? It'll be fun and you can get a real job when you're 30!"

What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot.

It doesn't mean "throw away a decade" -- it means "do the important things that it'll be harder for you to get away with if 10 years from now you have a family and mortgage."

I visited over 30 countries in my 20s. Even if that would have kept me from advancing my career (it didn't), I wouldn't trade that for being a year closer to a promotion in an IT job.

"What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot."

I am in my 30's and I hope to continue/start doing some of this.

Ugh. I've been having this conversation a lot lately.

> Your 20′s lay the groundwork for success in the rest of your career.

Can also be said as: While in your 20's, you should start living like you're in your 30's, 40's and 50's, so you can do that and only that for your entire life.

I completely reject that way of thinking.

There are many things we all want to do in our 20's we will not want to do later in life, which is all the more reason to do them in your 20's, lest you never get to do them at all.

As anecdotal evidence, I spent 2 years of my life from 27-29 driving from Alaska to Argentina, because I wanted to. Will I want to sleep in a tent for >500 nights when I'm 50? doubtful. Am I extremely happy that I did? You bet, best experience of my life. Did it "harm" my career? No, I'm working right now as a Software Engineer.

Absolutely agree with you. I went on a wild adventure through my 20s, spending time in Alaska, working as a baker, managing an organic farm for several years - living for the most part from the seat of my pants just following what felt right.

I'm sure I sacrificed some aspects of a 'career' because of it but I had an incredible life experience. And when I turned 30 I met the love of my life, finally committed full time to developing software (after a number of fits and starts) and never looked back.

I never spend a day feeling like I 'missed out on something'. Rather, I'm really enjoying my life where it is at right now, cool career, wonderful wife and 2 1/2 year old son.

I do kind of look forward to when my son gets a little older though so I can get a van and take him on some wild adventures ;)

Here's some insight which I had with a senior partner at a "big 4 consulting" firm and their attitude to age.

The buy up highly educated people in their 20's because they're cheap and eager to work. In fact, they're cheaper than most people when you do an hourly analysis (probably cheaper than cleaners).

BUT... the simple fact is, they also know they burn out by their 30's. Life takes over. The doubt. What am I doing with my life? Why don't I have a family? Maybe I missed out on other things my friends were doing?

By that stage, they no longer care about you because they've got a new batch of cheap 20's burning the midnight oil.

However, the good news is that they noticed that there's a reversal when people reach their 40's. They've got experience in life and business. They're no longer in doubt mode.

Ironically, these organizations have standard pitches to sell the career delusion. "People are our greatest assets" and similar rhetoric. The reality is ... THE DO NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOUR CAREER. Careers do NOT exist. It's like selling women the idea of being a "homemaker" in the 1950's.

I have noticed that people are more likely to be successful in their 30's and 40's (read some evidence that suggested that too but can't remember the reference). People getting rich in their 20's is an aberration.

Neuroplasticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_That_Changes_Itself) also suggests that we never stop learning, so I have to disagree with point 3 "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s." Dribble! That's like the rhetoric about careers. People just get lazy.

What people have going for them in their 20's is no commitment and all the time in the world. But no experience which can also be a disadvantage. If you can recreate "no commitment" in your 30's-40's (20's + real experience), then you should excel because your ideas are more mature and hopefully clearer!

You're more likely to be successful as an actor in your 30's for the same reasons!

This is a delicate subject because one can view it as a call for those in their 20s to make the most of that time, which is a fine message, to something tantamount to ageism.

While it's true that those in their 30s or older can be closed to new idea, that's not because they're "old", it's because they're people and some people are closed-minded.

I find a lot of these complaints are more about the cultural and lifestyle gap between those in their 20s and those who are older.

I remember the 80s. I'm not particularly interested in going bar-hopping. I find most social media to be an annoying drivel from people who vary between exhibitionists to just liking the sound of their own voices (everybody is talking, nobody is listening). I don't have that same sense of enthusiasm because for me everything isn't new. Most things really are derivative. To paraphrase something Don Draper said, I've reached a point on my life where I think I've basically met every kind of person there is. That's not to say that people can't surprise you. They can. It's just that you realize they're not as different as they once seemed.

This is exacerbated in the startup world since so many are cut from the same cloth: valedictorians in high school, magna cum laude, graduates of Stanford/MIT/CMU/Columbia, interned at Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft/Google, now working for one of those or some hot startup. It's a whittled down group of the technocratic elite who often-times don't really know how privileged and lucky they are.

At Google there tends to be two kinds of people: those who have worked in the outside world, particularly in Corporate America, and know how lucky they are and how different this is. And those that haven't and think this is just how the world is.

I don't begrudge them their successes and accomplishments but it is a form of cultural isolation--even inbreeding.

All of this means there tends to be a smaller set of common social norms with the "20s set".

At the same time, I pick up new technologies, languages and frameworks as much as I ever did. Possibly more so. Just now I've been doing a lot of AngularJS. That certainly didn't exist in my 20s. While I may not have the same youthful exuberance, I have experience and can draw lessons and parallels from programming in every stage of the Web's development (from CGI scripts on).

I will say this to those planning to have children: do it while you're young and it has nothing do with fertility. Children simply take an enormous amount of energy and commitment and this is far easier to bounce back from the younger you are.

As for the rest of it? Take another comment on this thread:

> Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention

That's fairly blatant ageism but, more than that, it's from someone who only knows people like him- or herself that wants to surround themselves with the same. Like I said: commonality and shared social norms are really what's in play there.

I completely agree with what cletus says. I'm 43 years old today. Some things just feel uninteresting because I started doing them too young. Interestingly programming is not one of them, I have been doing it for 30 years. On the other hand, I have been rock climbing for 7 years and I'm better than ever [in case you care: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olEgfe4cYuU ]. It still feels pretty new to me. I know 25-year-olds who started climbing as kids, reached their potential and lost interest.

Everyone is different, every decade in a person's life is different. In my personal case, my work between 30 and 40 was far better than what I did between 20 and 30. I feel pretty inspired right now.

This type of post is the stuff that you want to say to yourself at every point in your life (you can only make the best of the present, after all). It doesn't really work as advice to others.

Are programming/rock climbing overlapping interests everywhere or more so in the Bay Area? The problem solving aspect of climbing (particularly bouldering) always appealed to me, and I always see programmers at the climbing gym. But it seems like a disproportionately high number of programmer friends (compared to other friends) climb in SF.

Where I am (not SF) there's definitely a large showing of programmer/climbers at the local gym. I think a large part of it does have to with the problem solving aspect (hell, we call them problems even), but for me it has more to do with it fitting in with my life a lot more cleanly then any other sport does. I don't have to change into a uniform or put on a whole mess of gear or anything of that sort (when I'm going to the gym anyway). I just walk in, put on my shoes, and go. There's no inertia to climbing. There's not many sports that give this; "pumping iron" can but personally I enjoy climbing and solving problems to counting to thirty while sitting in a chair.

There's more to lifting than counting while sitting down! Strength training that has a focus on powerlifting and Olympic lifting are very different than the bodybuilding focus that tends to pervade most gyms. CrossFit is something to check out if you want more fun strength training.

I apologize, I was being dismissive. I wasn't trying to say that weightlifting/bodybuilding/etc lacked meaning or were inferior, just that the motivations are different, and for me personally the intrinsic motivation of them (this muscle needs to be worked out, then this one, etc...) doesn't work as well for me as the extrinsic motivation (I'm going to finish this problem today) of climbing.

That's my point, though. The mentality of "this muscle needs to be worked, then this one..." is a bodybuilder mentality. It's not shared by strength athletes in powerlifting, Olympic lifting, strong man, and the much newer CrossFit. When I lift, I focus on movements, not muscle groups. I focus on big, compound movements like squats, deadlifts or clean and press, not on specific muscles.

Basically, bodybuilding is concerned with aesthetics, while the strength sports are concerned with performance. When I train, my motivation comes from the challenge. Can I deadlift 405 for 5 reps? Can I hit a new personal record of 435? It's a question of raw capability: what are the limits of what I can do? When you get into high rep rangs with compound movements, it becomes an issue of anaerobic endurance: can I squat 235 for 20 reps, or will the pain and exhaustion be too much?

At the Seattle Bouldering Project I estimate a quarter of all climbers are from Google, Amazon or MS. Also a high proportion of resumés crossing my desk mention climbing.

also in Seattle, and I can verify from my sample of friends that at least 80% of them are into going to SBP, and 100% of those people work at Amazon.

Sounds like a great place for networking.

Here in Vancouver there is definitely a lot of programming types at the rock climbing gym and at the crags. Other professionals that seem to be attracted to it are Engineers (of all types), Geologists, and Environmental Sciences people.

It's everywhere. I've known a lot of physicists and programmers/engineers who climb, and I'm in Kentucky.

I've always heard the problem solving aspect put forth as to why it's so popular with these types.

Waterloo, Ontario is a minor Canadian tech hub, and the climbing gym here is definitely full of programmers, mathematicians, physicists, and generally nerdy types.

This came up a few weeks ago when I was discussing a ray tracer with a classmate in the locker room and everybody else in the room had something to chip in. I wouldn't even expect that programmer-density on campus, never mind a gym 30 minutes away.

A bit off-topic, but that was a really nice send. What song was in the video?

Thanks! It's Brazil by Cornelius.

> On the other hand, I have been rock climbing for 7 years and I'm better than ever

OT(as far as the OP is concerned) questions from someone who is considering taking up climbing.

1. Isn't what you are doing in the video called bouldering?

2. Do you usually climb in your jeans? I am wondering does it allow you required flexibility?

3. Do you work on your core for climbing or climbing works your core?

4. What would you say about artificial walls and bouldering arenas for a beginner?

SF is very fascinated with Yosemite, but there are other areas that also push the sport. Obviously, the Europeans have done alot. Bouldering is itself a pretty hardcore activity, and one that has pioneered at times certain techniques that have had broader impact. Some of the best in also in the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueco_Tanks

Where are you based? I picked up climbing in May 2012, and can offer you some advice based on what I've been through. Email's in my profile to continue the chat if you want.

In case you're interested in the another climber's answers:

1. Yes. Bouldering is one type of rock climbing.

2. Very occasionally. It does limit flexibility somewhat, but I wouldn't skip climbing because I forgot my shorts.

3. Both.

4. They're great. Just make sure to get outside eventually!

(edit: formatting)

Find your closest climbing gym and show up. I have very limited climbing experience, and only in gyms, but it's one of those things that it's just easier to show up.

Way OT but let's do this. Note: climb V5/6 currently.

1. Yes that is bouldering, but bouldering is a subset of rock climbing, as is sport climbing.

2. Bouldering is frequently about balance and power, for some problems flexibility isn't as crucial. I climb in jeans outdoors, sometimes it's the best option as rock can quickly cut through lighter materials. My jeans are skinny and stretchy.

3. Climbing works your core, simply by climbing more and more.

4. Don't play the grades game, don't buy a hangboard. Go into a gym and have fun on the boulder. Don't try too hard and hurt your tendons, they take years to grow accustom to the stress induced by hard bouldering.

Great send. That crux looks very fun!

Nice looking problem. Castle rock is one of my favorite spots in the states. Small, but by Fontainebleau-esque in style.

And hey, if you do ever make it out to Font itself, look me up. It's paradise for the 7a (V6) boulderer, and we've got a house here. It'd be cool to meet a fellow HN'r on the rocks.

>I'm 43 years old today.

Happy Birthday!

Yes, it's blatant ageism. As much as we hate to admit it, our minds and bodies start to decline almost as soon as we reach maturity. Not only does raw intelligence drop as we age, but some personality traits change. Of the Big Five, openness to new experiences takes the biggest hit. See http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#aging and http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/www/external/labor/agin... for the scientific evidence.

Obviously these stats don't mean that old people are stupid and close-minded. Knowledge accumulates and helps offset many of the deficiencies. Still, this evidence does suggest that young people might want to change their behavior to benefit their future selves. This doesn't just mean making the most of the time you have. Exercise, continuous learning, and a few drugs can help to slow the decline. As an analogy, think of athletes. A 50 year-old is never going to win the Boston marathon. But with proper training, nutrition, and maybe a few performance-enhancing drugs, they can beat 95% of 25 year-olds.

Being open to new experiences, in my opinion, is much more a matter of the people you surround yourself with, than with physiology. Sure, your brain may change a little bit in your 20s and not so much in your 30s, but if you have the right friends, perhaps some younger friends, they will drag you into new things.

I have felt that palpably running my own company for the last 5 years. In the first few years, it was just my wife and I doing everything, writing the code and running the business. As we started to make enough money that we could hire people, I started to notice how set in our ways we became.

Since we had started writing iPhone apps near the beginning of the mobile revolution, our code was written to suit older devices. In places, we did things for performance reasons so our apps would work well on old phones. Also, we never adopted ARC, because that's just not how we did it. But as we started to hire people, our engineers pushed us to change our old ways, and as a result, our code became much better.

So, I say - don't fear the reaper. Just find some young friends (or employees). I turned 30 this year, so I have a few gray hairs, but working with people in their 20s really has changed my ideas on the right way to do things, and given me perspective on my own life.

reading this i thought you might be 40+ and was suprised you write "turned 30 this year". You make yourself much older than you are..i will turn 30 too in 2 months but i have never felt to need to "surround myself with younger people in their 20s"..Many of my friends are late 20s, mid 20s or even early 20s, still nobody feels that anyone of the other is "old" or "young", its just not much of a difference to be noticed anyway.

One thanksgiving I showed an 80 year old how to put a candle out with a hand gesture. He was really into it an in his words there are far fewer really new things at 80 than you might think. Which struck me as the core of a lot of ageism, when your young doing just about anything is a solid learning environment, but eventually it becomes tough to continue to develop new skills. Your job becomes all about leveraging what you already know not expanding you into new areas the same for your social circle and if your not careful hobby's.

>Of the Big Five, openness to new experiences takes the biggest hit.

Interesting links.

Perhaps I have some sort of Benjamin Button thing going on. I spent most of my "youth" being quite reserved. Up until my mid-20s I was primarily concerned with not screwing up what I believed to be precious, fragile success.

I've increasingly opened up as I've gotten older and at 33 feel decades "younger" than I did heading into my 20s for whatever that's worth.

I wonder what my chart would look like? Would I actually find myself rising in these regards relative to the average, only myself or not at all?

>Exercise, continuous learning, and a few drugs can help to slow the decline.

I could not agree more.

I credit frequent, intense exercise with at least a much benefit to my mind as my body and find boredom hard to fathom.

I'd put surrounding yourself and interacting with the right and likely ever-evolving set of people up there too. Complacency and conformity lead to mental atrophy.

While it's true that those in their 30s or older can be closed to new idea, that's not because they're "old", it's because they're people and some people are closed-minded.

I feel social pressure plays a big part. Even the so-called open-minded 20 year olds will make fun of people in their 30s and 40s who still try to live an "unsettled" lifestyle. To accept wild and crazy ideas in your 20s just means you still have some growing up to do. To do the same later in life shows an abandonment of your responsibilities, which is frowned upon by society – in North America, at least.

> those who have worked in the outside world ... and know how lucky they are and how different this is. And those that haven't and think this is just how the world is.

As a mid-30s guy at Google for 2 years, I'm never sure whether fresh grads getting their first job at Google will ever know (or need to know) how lucky they are.

It's well known that for men the peak years are 40-50.

Yes, 20s are awesome, but, unless you're producing Nobel-winning stuff in your early 20s, then you had best learn to age well.

> I don't have that same sense of enthusiasm because for me everything isn't new.

I agree. I think one of the reasons why people in 30s seem to be more "close-minded" to new ideas is because they already have a decade of experience of the (then) fresh new stuff. This is especially true for the IT world.

Let's face it, we are reinventing the wheel in every 5 years. Just look at how frameworks and programming languages go in and out of fashion. You may say "oh man, not again!" when an enthusiastic young programmer tells you how great node.js is - which may be true, but in your open-minded 20s you already learnt Erlang, Twisted, EventMachine and Java NIO for the very same thing.

I'm not yet 30, but I already feel that I am becoming more conservative. I have seen a lot of "hot stuff" come and go, so I try to learn from technologies that seem to persist. Look at C, this old monster: it survived its creator, and for a reason. Now look at YUI or ExtJS: they were so "hot" around 2007, and I haven't even heard them mentioning for a long time. When somebody says that framework/language X is so great and "hot", I am a bit more careful now that 5 years ago: will it be around in 2 years? If not, does it worth even bothering?

Is this closed-mindness or wisdom? Very hard to tell. I am trying to be open-minded in a sense that I try to look and evaluate everything new, but I'm sure that I say "no" to much more things than 5 years before. I wonder how I would see myself in the eye of my 5 year-old younger me.

I agree with the author's view. For the lack of better words, I think the author intends to imply that the struggle to learn new skills in the 20's is what leads to a successful later life. In the 20's you can take a lot of chances, risk misfires and learn from it. A personal cognitive pattern recognition for problem solving emerges from these struggles to learn new things. This pattern recognition when applied later in life with maturity and deep thought result in successful decisions. Please don't make ageism such a taboo. For example I have never heard or seen anyone applying ageism to children and old men. Ageism has a lot to do with biological growth than social apartheid.

Most startup advice is also good advice for 20-somethings.

Get to an MVP quickly: Find a way to practice your target profession as soon as possible. (Don't spend hundreds of thousands getting a law degree just to discover you hate the actual work.) This is easy for programmers: just start building stuff before applying to the CS program.

After MVP, iterate quickly: So you know Ruby? Time to learn another language, or about compilers, or about web typography, or about finance. Don't stand still.

Be ready to pivot: If you discover you find your work unfulfilling, the time to change is now. Don't wait to switch careers until your 40s.

Don't prematurely optimize: Your 20s should be about gaining skills and experience, not about getting big paychecks. The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road.

The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road.

From a purely financial perspective, money now is better than money later though. A 20 year old who secures a job that nets him enough to save $15,000 per year until retirement will ultimately have a lifetime net savings of about the same as someone who finally finds a job that pays enough to save $50,000 per year at the age of 40.

And as for the military, cashing out at twenty years of service with a $47,000 annual pension (starting immediately and inflation-adjusted over time) plus the G.I. Bill is not a bad deal at all.

The downside is that you have to be in the military for 20 years.

I think this is sort of bullshit

first shouldn't you take every discrete chunk of your life seriously?

to the degree to which this is true, its true because we tell ourselves its true, most people don't reinvent themselves past their 20s because they choose not to, not because the obsticles standing in their way are insurmountable

Interesting post. There is also other school of thought:

- in 20s you party

- in 30s you raise family

- in 40s you build business

And, don't worry: if you are very creative in 20s you will be the same creative person with new ideas in 40s.

I wholeheartedly disagree and I might add that this is bullshit. Do whatever the hell you want to do with your twenties. If your idea of a perfect life is a flawless career, then go for it. Go where your interests take you. As long as you get bread on the table and don't bury yourself in debt, there is no reason why you should feel you are wasting some grandiose opportunity. Life isn't only about work and money.

The irony of life is that you don't truly understand what is important in your 20's (or any age) until you are much older. Not only do we fail to understand things until we get some outside perspective - but also our priorities change.

In my 40's I wish I had done certain career things differently. But I can imagine myself in my 80's wishing I had goofed off more, traveled the world and not taken anything too seriously. As the old joke goes, not too many people are on their death bed wishing they had worked harder.

I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this, ever since the topic came up on reddit about why so few people in their 20's seem to "have their shit together."

I think it comes down to two reasons. The first one is huge, but its essentially luck. I think the reason I'm even afforded the opportunity to take my 20's seriously is almost completely happenstantial.

Looking at my friends and (distant) family I sometimes feel guilty because nothing bad has ever really happened to me in my life, whereas they've had to put up with all kinds of weird shit. For many people I know not being able to take their 20's seriously as powerhouse career years is sort-of excusable. They were spending them trying to survive, or raise a family all-too-soon.

But me? I'm young (24), well educated, I live in a huge Victorian-era house near main street nearly for free, programming job, walk to work every day, have a book deal (boring HTML5 book), brag, brag, etc, etc

But somehow I feel I'm just infinitely lucky. Lucky that my parents are two normal, well adjusted people. Lucky that I could be awkward and nerdy as all shit through middle school and high school and nobody was ever unpleasant to me. I was never bullied. No weird drama ever entered my life. I exited college with $0 but debt-free, thanks to Bank of Dad, who carefully engineered my experience to be basically broke but never in-the-hole so long as I worked (got an internship every summer and winter).

Lucky lucky lucky. Thanks everyone in my life so far. Really.

---------------------

On the flip side I think that such a lifestyle (very career focused 20's) is seen as unattractive to a lot of 20-somethings. At the least, I think most people in my age range would describe people like me as boring (though I am never really bored). I spend most of my days reading, writing, sitting in cafes, programming, or doing art things. Right now and for several more months, its nearly 100% career activities. If I had to put together a dating website profile, it probably wouldn't look particularly attractive to other 20-somethings.

Put another way, most of my hobbies are either career related or solitary acts. Not that people can't appreciate them, just that none of them are exciting, and most of my 20-something friends (none of which IRL are programmers, I lead a lonely career here in NH) that proclaim me to be one of the few who has their shit together would also not want to be me.

None of them want to work desk jobs and then go home and work some more. They want to work in food/bar services or have a whatever-job, drop it at 5pm and go do fun 20-something things. Career development it seems isn't fun to most 20-somethings, socializing at bars is, moving out to Montana to climb things and work for a harvest season is, saving up to hide away in Peru for a year is, writing music with friends while working retail is, but not career development. Not to disparage these things, it just a sampling of their goals.

Having just "got my shit together" at 30, I can compare our lives and remark on the great value -- not just emotional, but also economic -- of having well-adjusted, supportive parents. They've helped you, instead of trying to guilt you into supporting them and their poor life decisions.

Career-building is unattractive to most 20-year olds, but it becomes very attractive to these same people once they get into their early 30s.

Great post. I also consider myself very lucky, much the same way as you. I've had some setbacks, but nothing that couldn't be handled. I also feel this pull from these two lifestyles, the "boring" stable desk job, or traveling the planet, code whatever I want and live life like there's no tomorrow. My fiancée is two years older than me (27), so that puts some pressure on getting kids and settling down fast. I've managed to save up what I consider a lot of money, but I feel the need to use that towards buying an apartment or house.

Other than being single, I'm in the exact same position as you. I'm pulled between building a career and travelling the world.

I graduated last spring and spent the summer backpacking in Asia before starting a boring desk job. I live with my parents still so I'm saving almost all of my income.

Now I'm seriously considering quitting in six months and heading back to Asia until I figure out what I want to do. My job is terrible, especially since I was effectively lied to about what I'd be doing, but I'm more or less getting paid to do nothing. In six months I'll have enough money to spend a year backpacking across SE Asia, Eastern Europe, South America, wherever.

Or I could just quit now and go find a job I like. I'm honestly not sure what to do.

Life is too short to do something you hate. Do whatever you need to to find out what you're passionate about. Building a career around that will be 100X more fulfilling.

As Steve Jobs said, "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been "No" for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something."

I think because 20-somethings with ambitions tend to move and live in career centers. Come to SF or NYC and you'll find a lot of ambitious 20-somethings that care about their career. I know of mid-twenties women who've dumped their long term boyfriends because the boyfriends were unambitious and didn't want to get anywhere in their life other than dead end retail jobs.

If you wanted to move to such a career center, I would suggest NYC since it's close to your family and the dating is better for men there.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a social life. Having a social life is independent of career ambitions.

Take advantage of your lack of setbacks and get ahead in life.

On that point, I've been chided by my partner for having a crappy job in the Bay Area--one which offered plentiful opportunities for career progression, paid in the top quintile of one of the highest paying areas in one of the highest paying countries in the world, and which didn't have hours that were too ridiculous. That's the real danger of moving to a career-center like SF or NYC: the people who end up here score very highly on the getting their shit together in their 20s scale.

Thing is: she was right. Even though I was excelling at number 1) on the original post's three points, I wasn't super happy. And so I've moved from that to what I worry he might consider just dicking around. But it's absolutely 100% for the best.

My perspective is that life circumstances often force you to "get your shit together." Specifically, having a spouse and kids to support provides an instant shot of maturity and focus for most (decent) people. That was certainly the case for me after having my first child at 26. Since more educated adults these days seem to be delaying marriage and children into their early thirties, it naturally follows that more twenty-somethings would lack the motivation to lead a more disciplined/career-minded lifestyle.

"2) Statistically, women need to have all their children by 35.

According to the author, a woman’s ability to get pregnant plummets starting in her mid-thirties. To make matters worse, the odds of a miscarriage for a woman over 35 is one in four."

Our family doctor gave the odds as 3 in 5.

In practical experience, I know of four friends who have miscarried at 35 (after being pregnant for over 3 months), out of about 11 who had kids at that age.

My wife and I have always suspected that the 3 out of 5 statistic also includes miscarriages in the first two months of pregnancy where you might not have been sure you were pregnant or late.

Just to chime in here, I personally know two 34+ year old moms who had children in the past 2 years with Down Syndrome, after having numerous miscarriages. It seems a lot of young geeky guys commenting here forget that it's not just men who have a child so if you want to have a kid in your 30s and 40s after building a career, it's going to be difficult to find a partner at that same age who has the same goals.

It's not just the age of the female partner that affects the child's health. As men age, the risk of passing genetic mutations (including those that cause diseases) onto their offspring increases. This article talks the study: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthiness/9492343/Men-ad...

So if you're an older guy, having kids with a younger woman doesn't make this problem go away.

The one-in-four statistic is for miscarriages after the sixth week of pregnancy. In the general population, the percentage of miscarriages is 15%, or about one-in-six.

One thing to keep in mind is that a miscarriage is not the end of the world. Heartbreaking, yes, but it's not too late to try again.

I think that the word "miscarriage" carries extreme connotations with it, you instantly imagine giving birth to a dead baby.

In Germany, if a fetus or embryo does not continue development at an early-ish stage and is expelled by the womb, midwives (I used to date one for 2 years) usually use the word "Schwangerschaftsabbruch", which translates to "discontinuation of pregnancy".

I think that's a word which much better describes what's happening without the emotional baggage and which might prepare people better to what's going on - my girlfriend is 37 and we're trying to have kids but it's hard, and I know that we're going to run into a few "discontinuations" before anything is going to happen.

I read The Baby Chase: An Adventure in Fertility last year and I think everyone in their 20s should read it. It's about the author's struggles to have a baby and it made a huge impression on me as a woman in my mid-twenties. I'm not going to rush into anything, but I'm not going to date people who aren't ready to have a family anymore. I do wish I were a man sometimes though so I wouldn't have to worry about this as much.

Wow, I guess my family have some handy mutations here...my mom and dad were both born to mothers older than 36, and my mom gave birth to me and my brother at 39 and 42, respectively.

As fertility technology improves, don't you think that such experiences will become more common?

The issue I have with seeing life advice posts is that I've begun to see this dichotomy between "follow your heart" advice and "follow your head" advice. And I personally have a split between the two: my degree is in CS and my current job is in programming, but by "pie in the sky" dreams involve writing and performing music. I happen to have more knowledge in the former as a consequence of my degree, but I didn't really passionately pursue any major side projects. (This hindered my job hunt slightly, but I still managed to circumvent it via personal connections. It does pay to know people, in my experience.)

As I was closing in on the end of my college degree plan, I felt torn between these two seemingly divergent ends. As a result I crept into a disillusioned depression fueled by the realization that it was too late to switch degrees that wildly and by firsthand experience of the job hunt as a CS student from west Texas with little heart in the industry.

So I'm just taking solace in the fact that I'm working a job with a really short commute and a good environment where I can go home at 5:00 and pursue music as a hobby. I might even notice eventually that my life's passion doesn't land in either music or programming, and to be honest I'd be okay with that if it gave me a direction to point in. But at this point, having only graduated from college this year (turning 23 next week), it feels like I just need to to something. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm coasting now that I've "made it" out into the world relatively unscathed.

Have you thought about trying to find the intersection of the two? Is there a company or something you can work on that takes advantage of both skillsets?

I think the real challenge in life is to get heart and head in alignment. It's not easy, but who said it would be?

I had put some thought in that direction, and thought about finding companies that made DAWs. However, this space turned up dead ends, at least when I was looking. The other thought I had was indie game dev, which I thought needed a bit more time investment than I had before it would pay off. (I was thinking in terms of when I was finishing college, after which I would have to escape the shadow of my parents, who can only be so nurturing.)

And I like your point there about the challenge of life.

You have plenty of time to change your trajectory! Bank some money, and don't give up on software so easily.

That's the idea I have at this point. There are parts of software I enjoy - why the hell else would I stay in a degree program with a ~20% retention rate? - but it's not something I find quite inspiring at this point. But another thing the post and the other comments made me realize is that my 20's as a whole can be an experimentation ground, and I have plenty of time left in that block.

A good friend of mine programs to support her work as an artist.

It's not a perfect setup, but no one said you have to be all-in on your career your whole life.

I find your desire to "build a large company" interesting - I shared this until I realized that almost nobody gets out of bed in the morning because they say "I want to build and run a large company" - this is fundamentally unsustainable. Instead finding problems you care about or find interesting might be more motivating and put less pressure on your psychological well being. This helps you get rid of the time pressure you seem to be feeling and will bring a new sense of focus and purpose.

This is especially true concerning the mind. The older we get the less open we are to new ideas. Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention. I just take this as a warning as somebody who is older to be open to change and be willing to embrace new ideas.

> The older we get the less open we are to new ideas.

I agree with this point of view insofar as that's the behavior we usually observe in most people. I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things. It's not easy though, and of course we all develop habits over the course of our lives which can be very hard to shake off.

> I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things.

What you do is be open-minded in your 20s. Then you get "set in the way" of being open-minded, never to change that.

Sounds pretty closed-minded, getting "set in the way" like that. ;)

It really depends on how deep these things are. When it comes to certain matters such as faith, family values or even programming habits they're much harder to change. Sure, anybody can try sushi for the first time when they're 50.

That's absolutely true - some things are easier to change than others. I like your sushi example; it's easy for most people to "try something new" when the experience feels disposable and non-threatening to someone's current worldview.

It is much much harder to ask someone to be open to a new way of seeing life, especially in the areas you mentioned. Pick your favorite controversial political topic - a prime example of how difficult it is to get people to open up.

On the contrary, I suggest 20s is the best time to explore who you actually are - so called "hippy" stuff. As later on it just becomes that much more difficult. Whether you end up building a great company or end up doing a regular job in your later years, it will not mean much if you did not find out who you actually are, what is your purpose in life (all those silly questions we all pondered sometimes but never actually pursued). Once explored thoroughly, and if the conclusion was that your purpose in life was to do a start-p(or startups) and establish a successful company, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, neither your startup will be successful, or if successful, your life will still be miserable. Better to figure all this out in 20s, instead of focusing primarily on your career.

IMO 20-something is THE time to go for it. You'll only get more encumbered by personal expense overhead and non-monetary time commitments as you get older.

Yes, our bodies haven't kept pace with society and technology. If you ever want to have kids, ladies need to be finished having children by 35. Start before 30 but if you know you have potential fertility issues start as early as possible after getting an education. You'll only miss out on happy hour where people get fat and dissolve their their faces with alcohol anyway.

One downside is you may not feel as credible as someone older when trying to make a sale in-person. However, some older people will give you the sale because they like you because you're a younger version of them.

Another downside is establishing appropriate relationships with employees that are about your same age. Attila doesn't drink with the huns. You can't tell if they actually like you because you're paying them so you're probably not as funny as they make you feel. If you get rich they're going to hate you anyway; even if they get some of the loot too it won't be enough. That doesn't go for real partners - you need a small senior team of complementary people that live and die with the company - that's hard to find but critical.

Luck favors the prepared. You can be almost completely invisible to the world and still make enough money that it changes the course of the rest of your life. Time will pass regardless and you're probably going to be working anyway so why not place your big bets when they only affect you?

I have a different take:

College Years, 18-23: This is the time to just be. You can treat college as a stressful strive-fest for meaningless grades, or you can treat it like a 4-5 year vacation. Optimize for gentleman's C's. You still get all the social and class benefits.

23-30: These are your prime productive years. This is the time to amass your fortune.

30 to death: Travel, play golf, foster community and friendships. Get married, have kids. All of these things will be much more enjoyable with some cash.

It really just depends, doesn't it? We all regret some things, and we probably fail to appreciate some things we've done right.

That's my plan :)

An easier way to think about this is that life, like money, compounds.

Good decisions you make early in life compound and pay dividends for the rest of your life.

>I need to develop as many of the skills I need to lead such a company now, because in a few years it may be difficult or almost impossible to grow in the ways necessary to handle the role.

This neurological development is completely misinterpreted. I already posted on this exact topic not that long ago, but I'll reiterate.

The poster is correct in noting neurological development does come with age in your 20s when one's frontal cortex (or lobes) of the brain fully develop.

This has nothing to do with "developing new skills", but rather its your ability to control higher-order functioning. This could range from long term planning, motivation, and inhibition towards behavior.

When you're young you're somewhat crazy and brash. This allows one to take chances, push the envelope, and reach breakthroughs. If anything this counters the poster's logic, and they should be creating a start-up in their teens instead.

With that said it works both ways. The youth lack the ability fully reason, plan, and in SOME cases think logically through a problem (in the sense of understanding the repercussions of their actions).

What's the point? I'm 24 years old. Education was expensive, so I worked my way up as a programmer and web developer right out of high school. I've worked at some pretty big corporations and now I'm looking to buy a house while my friends are just getting out of University with junior developer positions while living at home. My co-workers are all around 10-20 years older than I am. I've made senior developer, but I won't be able to move into any type of management positions for another 5-10 years just because of my age. There's no additional advancement or benefits to a slightly early head start on a career. People who give advice like this probably don't remember what it was like to be this age.

My advice? If you have the chance to see the world, have a cool college experience, or the opportunity to do something unique with your life follow through with it.

Climbing the corporate ladder in any field at any age is difficult at best, but doing so at twenty? Probably one of the main drives behind talented 'kids' joining startups now days.

Concepts like this seem very specific to obtain a certain desired lifestyle rather than advice on how to live.

1) Don't put off your career: While I agree it mainly correlates to two things. a. Spend as much time as you can doing what you have a drive to do. (e.g: setting yourself to be financially above or where you were when you grew up, trying to start a band, or trying to create the next major startup). c. Make sure to live below your means. (i.e: Ensure if you make 100 dollars after tax regardless of pay 25 of it is being saved. This gets harder and harder as there is a asymptote decided by the market (cost of living) and situation (whether or not your parents basement is available) you live in).

2) Children: There is a lot of qualifications here that were taken in place in the article. While the clock is ticking and I agree, people look at children as a chore taken to ensure a certain lifestyle later in life; or just want them and are willing to sacrifice whatever else to enjoy having children. Both are generally the case but I feel the set of things that people choose to give up is too large. You should ensure that your finances should be in place to support them but the amount in which you should support them should vary based off of your financial situation (by this I do not limit it to the children's wants (less toys) but rather also the child's needs (why pay for a private school if you can't afford it? because it's worth the difference in learning experiences? What about no private school and finding other means of educating the child?))

3) Brain Finishes Forming: Fight it if you think that this is going to be the case (and care; I know a very large set of people who enjoy being close minded. It means that their life is less complicated by relatively asinine decision making, when they would prefer the action portion of the work (I can't understand this but have debated it with individuals)).

Advice on how to live is simple: 1) Learn (travel, fail at something, shadow someone) 2) Prune (decide what is worth learning (e.g does learning another programming language add much value compared to learning about the behaviors of a market or larger ones like learning about a girl))

I'm definitely going to look into this book because it seems like it helps people work on pruning which I believe is the hardest part of life.

However I feel that you (Jason) may have taken away some wrong things from the book because: "This is how most successful people I know have built their careers, and it always starts small." While this may be one of the largest pipes that create your definition of success, it is not the only one. People may need the life experience of working as a barista before starting their career for several reasons; or they may want to work at a hostel while traveling for several years to learn more about the world. The rate in which careers develop vary greatly from person to person and at what point; why base it on the average successful individual?

I've had a saying recently. I'm making a lot of sacrifices in my 20's so that I'm established and ready to start a family in my 30's.

Hopefully not too many sacrifices though. Life should be about much more than creating new life. The 20s is the time to focus on yourself.

Unless you are female. There really is such thing as a biological clock.

edit: Before I get downvoted, insert "... and want children"

Having children when you're young is a good idea primarily because kids are exhausting, and take up a LOT of time. Have them as young as you're able and wanting to do so: nothing to do with your gender. Men have fertility issues as they age also.

If you can make a resource by yourself, outsource- in this case, adopt.

It will make some of the exhaustion go away, since it seems to be due to diverging circadian rythms between a newborn and an adult.

A say 4 years old kid would logically be less exhausting to raise.

Also, if the kid is adopted, it also removes fertility issues concerns.

Strike 2 birds with 1 stone!

I wish I could agree but a) 4 years old are just as exhausting (the first year is actually the easiest in terms of time you have available) and b) adoption is increasingly more difficult. I have friends who just adopted a baby after 5 years of tests and checks and more checks.

Foster care is another option, it's easier to 'sign up' and you can get school-age kids, who need just as much help as an adopted kid.

Interesting - when does the exhaustion function reaches a maximum ? I thought it was the hardest in the first 4 years.

(regarding the difficulties of adoption, they could be compared to the outsourcing cost :-/ foster care is a great idea, but may not work for people who want to have "their" kids)

To put it simply: exhaustion becomes superseded, or exchanged in kind, by fun as kids gain more ability to communicate and comprehend the world around them. It's up to you as the parent to decide what is fun and what's not: an engaged parent is going find almost anything fun when their kids are involved and equally engaged, tantrums aside!

Everybody should get to choose what to make their life "about"; life is so varied, it's hard for me to take seriously any pronouncements about what a certain specific segment should be about.

Same here. I would add that one of the things I'm pretty careful not to sacrifice is interpersonal (and as a corollary emotional) development. These things play a huge part in your ability to raise children that grow up to become well adjusted and successful young people. I try to be mindful of this when weighing whether or not to put in another weekend/evening coding.

You should enjoy life, love, learn, teach, travel, and have fun from zero to death. The 20s are no different. I for one had an absolute blast in my 20s, did well financially, and didn't take myself "seriously." Different strokes for different folks. People should just plain think for themselves and NOT take themselves too seriously, IMHO :)

Having read a bunch of the comments and the OP, I think everyone has shared something that makes good sense. The problem is, though, that as much as these "lessons" make sense to us when reading them, it makes absolutely no sense to try and apply these lessons to ANOTHER PERSON.

Each and every one of us have formed our own opinions about things, shaped by each and every one of our unique life experiences. To try and apply it to someone else is pointless, and futile.

Instead, be happy. Do whatever it takes to find happiness. Apply whatever lessons are necessary to find the motivation behind YOUR happiness, and go after it. Strong, focused motivation is the most scarce resource for a human's life, and the path to finding that motivation is different for every one of us.

We live for nothing else but the pursuit of happiness, and there's an infinite number of shapes it can be. Find yours.

There are some good points here, but my advice is that you should take your teens seriously.

It seems like the prevailing advice today for anyone in their teens is to live their lives free of any commitments and as independent and undirected as possible. But lately I realized the importance of my teens to a degree I never had and it has changed how I plan to approach the last few years of my teens.

I'm not going to wait until my twenties to move into my parent's house and work on my startup. I already live in their house, so why wait?

Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties, why waste our best years making mistakes? By starting early, I'm getting lots of mistakes out of the way. By the time I hit my twenties, I'll be at peak performance and have tons of experience under my belt.

But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween.

> But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween.

As someone who is a teen, and "taking their teens seriously."; I sometimes get this feeling.

And then I laugh like crazy and go back to what I was doing.

> Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties

Oh how you're going to laugh at that one later on.

My comment was meant as parody (I'm not actually in my teens), but I guess it missed the mark. I agree with the general sentiment of the article, but it would carry a lot more weight coming from someone who has actually lived a little.

I don't like the idea that "having fun" and "building a career" are mutually exclusive entities that don't touch on a Venn diagram. I built a career in my 20s based on things that excited me as a teenager, and I'm still excited by my career and consider my job a lot of fun. I didn't live in exotic countries or lounge around aimlessly because I'd rather be designing and building software: that's my fun. I suspect a lot of people on HN feel the same way, and just because one person's idea of "fun" is to travel around the world doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on what fun means.

Re: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

Specifically: "During most of the 20th century, the general consensus among neuroscientists was that brain structure is relatively immutable after a critical period during early childhood. This belief has been challenged by findings revealing that many aspects of the brain remain plastic even into adulthood."

There's only one thing about your age that definitively affects your life: Your body. Past concerns of the flesh, stop trying to box your experiences into meaningless numbers and just do things you want to do as you feel like it, at any age.

I'm on my feet, step aside man

Get out my way, I got a mind of my own

Beat all my fears as a young man

Now that I'm grown, I don't fear the unknown

-- Living Colour - Young Man - http://youtu.be/T7e2kVEFPrE

Not sure if any other venture than Mc D was started in post-30s. I guess Mc D was started in 40s but otherwise most of the startups were founded by its owners in 20s itself.

I don't know how I feel about a blog that drives you to click an Amazon affiliate link. Nevertheless, the points seem valid and thought-provoking. Thanks for sharing.

There's no one path.

It's good that our poets still keep things in perspective:

http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Ball.html

Good content. Thanks for sharing it rather than cowering before the self-publishing police.

You should take all of your life serious, but not so serious you do not enjoy it.

I agree with you. Probably the meaning of "serious" has to be understood better. "Serious" doesn't mean lack of fun. If that would be the case, there would be no lounges, beer bars, cafes in bay area for entrepreneurs.

And on the other hand, no point in getting HIV in 80s either :)

Well, shit.

Exactly. I read that and said "Well, too late for me, I guess." Good thing I'm happy with how my life turned out, regardless.

I know how you feel, but my response to this guy was to want to take him, put my arm around his shoulder, congratulate him on finding a way to motivate himself as he is right now, and warn him that he's got five, maybe six decades ahead of him, every one filled with possibilities that aren't going to depend on what he does right NOW NOW NOW. There's time. Everyone always has the wherewithal to change things, to start things, to build things, and to make things better, no matter how the past went.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722

Why you should take every moment seriously. Live life now!

how about: 'spend your thirties fixing all the mistakes you made in your twenties'

there, now that sounds fun

NO PRESSURE.

Go fuck yourself. Seriously.

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